But when the choice is a straight fascist who’s talking like he’s going to put my queer friends in the fucking ground vs same old America, I’ll take same old America a little bit longer so the people I care about don’t fucking die in 2 years.
Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
Meanwhile organize, effect change, praxis. All that good jazz.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
Sucks that it’s our choice here, but I don’t think y’all are considering what a trump round 2 would look like. And we are playing with fire.
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn’t change that. That’s not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I’m willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What’s your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I’m not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain’t gonna stop the choice from being made. And I’ll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn’t effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won’t vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this “You’d better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!” thing since the 60s, they’ve just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it’s incredibly relevant here.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn’t change that.
Don’t you see that’s the point? You’re accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You’re allowing the “harm reduction party” to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You’re guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for “reducing harm” forever. It doesn’t matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous “praxis” you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential “harm reduction” done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two “options” while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they’re not worth it.
I’m allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they’ll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that’s my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don’t have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
Yeah dude voting for the less bad option has done a world of difference. I can feel the harm being reduced already by way of cops getting more money to beat the shit out of me and my friends. The harm feels soooooo reduced after we gave up any pretense of fighting COVID. The harm is just super duper reduced now that roe v. Wade has been overturned. Things have most certainly not gotten worse. Harm reduction is when you signal that genocide is cool and good.
I get your anger. I do not want to argue about it anymore. I got too emotional about this and need to log off and cool it. But I understand your anger and I share it. Im sorry if I implied some kinda moral superiority (bit more than imply) for my reasoning for voting. Ultimately voting does nothing and we both know it. I just cannot get past the reasoning I stated to not vote, but it is my own problem and I shouldn’t of put that on anyone else.
We are still comrades, thank you for trying to convince me, I appreciate your view.
They aren’t the “harm reduction” party though. They are the “A lot of harm” party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the “Potentially even more harm” party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you’d rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I’m sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it “buys more time” for the libs to “wake up” is incredibly stupid. That’s like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you’re actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don’t you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is “no other option.” Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his “worse option” to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it’s necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn’t be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We’ve got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
Literally since the founding of the country we’ve never had 50% or more turnout. People who abstain from voting have been the majority in this country this whole time. If not voting fixed a broken system why isn’t it fixed if the majority already don’t vote?
And your a hero for not voting? Neither of us are. We ultimately will not change anything and this argument will do nothing but effect me and you. I have my reasons, I have explained them. I am sorry if I said explicitly and implied that it was a more moral choice to vote than to not. I let myself get emotional and said things I do not really believe. I cannot in my own mind be okay with not voting for the reasons I stated. This is not a judgement. It was, now it is not.
At the end of the day we are comrades. We have the same goal. I’m sorry we both got angry over something so pointless.
The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their heads…
Oh, here’s your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You’ll never understand my position because you don’t understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not “hear” what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there’s gonna be a lot of masked liberals “talking sense to the left” coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because “don’t you care bout my queer/brown friends?” is already played out.
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint
You think anyone’s gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin “complaint”, you don’t care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
I’d sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but “voting doesn’t affect the orgs in my community”, fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you’re the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
Hey as a queer person, fuck you. Get my community out of your fucking mouth. Biden has not done one single thing for me or for my community. Do not support genocide in the name of “protecting queer people.” Genocide does not protect us. Open slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent people does not protect us. Hiding behind the queer community in defense of genocide is cowardly and wrong. “Oh yeah well I have a queer friend” is the new white asshole way to say “well I have a black friend!” I am queer and you don’t get to use me as an excuse for genocide.
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don’t know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there’s a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don’t vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn’t between accelerationism or not, it’s how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn’t stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It’s the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn’t stopped it but he’s not using his platform to push it. That’s a small difference but it’s a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can’t have who you want you don’t get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I’m not going to be the target under trump. I don’t have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
Biden is using his platform to push for harmful shit, have you been living under a rock?
The genocide in Palestine is actively sided by the US Regime.
The meat grinder in Ukraine is actively sided by the US Regime and in large part started because of US blustering and has continued in part because of the US sabotaging peace talks.
Roe v Wade was overturned under Biden.
Biden has given more money to the police.
Anti-trans laws are seeing immense popularity under Bidens rule.
The border wall has been expanded.
Biden wants to do Trumps border policies.
The military has gotten more money under Biden.
Biden has been aggressively posturing against China both with Pelosis Taiwan visit and his claims about the “spy balloon” which were quietly retracted.
Biden has expanded fracking.
Biden was the one who decided we could “go back to normal” and declared covid over, despite being in the midst of a pandemic.
Biden is not a passive corpse just trucking along, he has expanded a shitton of awful things. You only perceive this as a status quo because your personal life has not gotten worse. Fuck you.
And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don’t vote that there’s a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn’t an option.
And how many of these would still be happening under trump?
All of them! I am saying they are the same! How can you be this dense? This is me showing you how they are the same! You are arguing for harm reduction and I am showing you harm isn’t being reduced you dumbass brickheaded incompetent dogheaded porridge farmer.
At least people like you pretended to give a shit under Trump.
I get what your saying. I’m saying that when they both are the same, the degrees by which they commit these atrocities is the only thing up for consideration. In that scenario my morals dictate that I must advocate for the side I thing will ultimately result in less tragedy, even if I believe that to be slight. A single life makes it worth it.
We don’t have to agree friend. I know this is a touchy subject for us, especially now and I’m sorry for implying that I was in any way morally superior for my choice over yours and I hope you feel the same. Ultimately the only thing this conversation effects is me and you right now. My vote and your lack of one will change nothing. Neither of us can stop it. Let us not be angry.
You can make a 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument if you want to, but you shouldn’t pretend it’s fascism vs no fascism. Zionism is fascism and should be labeled as such.
Zionism is fascism, Biden is a fascist, but Biden ain’t the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it’s 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option. And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don’t stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
but Biden ain’t the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it’s 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option.
Did Trump ever seriously talk about “declaring himself a dictator”? When you are only given the choices between 99 and 100% Hitler you reject the system and actually utilize the mass discontent instead of voting for the “least bad bad guys” regardless, effectively guaranteeing whatever they do is acceptable as long as they do not become the other guys.
My personal or our group rejection of the system has no actual material effect except to make things worse. You can’t just reject society without having the organized structure in place to actively rebel against it. Just not participating does nothing but make things worse.
Voting doesn’t stop you from organizing, unionizing and joining local organizations. It does nothing at all but make things worse. Is your argument accelerationist? Do you want things to get bad before getting better? If not I don’t see the point in your stance. I don’t want to be mean, I don’t mean to be rude. I genuinely do not understand. Do you not care what happens tomorrow?
And who has to suffer in the meantime while we see if that gamble pays off? I’m just not willing to make that decision. I can’t in good conscious knowing the fact that more people would suffer under trump than Biden. That’s my simple calculus.
Biden ain’t the one talking about declaring himself a dictator.
This doesn’t mean anything unless your head is still filled with magical liberal thinking. Either he has the power and support to be in power indefinitely or he doesn’t. People who can and will do coups don’t usually care about how you vote.
And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don’t stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
And my moral tells me that if I don’t live in a small pool of like 6 states, there’s absolutely no point in thinking about, let alone voting for, who gets to be president. Not all of us live in Georgia or Michigan. And unless you live in one of those 6 states, congrats, you’ve wasted your time and energy on something you have absolutely no control over.
Which is it? Dont vote and then shut up, or go out and organize? What you are seeing right now is a variant of people organizing - people going out and talking to each other, convincing that we dont actually have to vote for a genocider and that a better world is possible
I think you misunderstood me. I am saying do not just go vote and then chill. Voting does not stop you from organizing, volunteering and getting involved in your local community and leftist orgs. I’m saying voting is not the be all end all. It’s not the secret weapon. But it is a small, basically functionless tool for harm reduction.
“Harm reduction” is when you have a genocide in Palestine, a ceaseless and pointless meat grinder in Ukraine, kids in cages, expanded border walls, overturned Roe V. Wade, no pushback against anti-trans laws, immense inflation with no help, ignores a pandemic and give more money to the police.
Voting for Biden isn’t harm reduction.
So you should vote for trump then. If you believe him to be the less harmful of the two options. This is me baiting you to tell me you think trump is a less harmful option. Or did you not understand what harm reduction means? Or was is just not enough people whomst harm would be reduced for you to think it’s worth it? Or is the people’s whos harm would be reduced not be worthy of it?
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of “sticking it to the libs”
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of “sticking it to the libs”.
Holy shit, I missed this before. You are right now a cis straight man telling me, a non binary person, that the current climate isn’t an increase in harm. You are telling me that what Biden is doing is acceptable.
I didn’t want to pull that card, because it does not matter wether or not I personally experience the direct effects of the obvious fascist, but you pulled that card. Lol, lmao even.
I am not saying shit didn’t get worse under Biden. I am saying between Biden and trump that I believe it would be worse under trump and I do not see it within my rights as a group that wouldn’t be targeted to cross my arms and say that I won’t participate and risk people who would be targeted. I cannot in my own mind be okay with that. It’s not my choice. I’m sorry that I implied moral superiority for this mindset. I understand this is my own personal hangup and I got emotional and argumentive. Sorry.
You are not sorry. It is painfully obvious what you are. This high road act isn’t fooling anyone. If you actually were sorry, then you’d have listened and done some self-crit. You wouldn’t try to diminish the discussion, you would not continue the same question despite having it answered several times, you would engage with the arguments presented or shut the fuck up. You would respect it when you were asked not to take the mantle of friend or comrade upon you. You would actually attempt to understand instead of repeating tired lib-cliches. You wouldn’t attempt to pull several sad debatebro rhetorical tricks. You would reconsider instead of all the sanctimonious pearl clutching you’ve been attempting.
Instead you chose to misgender me.
Fuck you, you are not fooling anyone.
Harm reduction is when you vote for a fascist who arms and funds Nazis in Ukraine, while arming and funding the mass murder of innocent children. Harm reduction is when we decide that genocide is not a red line, this time
Genocide is happening either way, I believe the liberals will do less of a genocide because they at least try to pretend like they aren’t doing it. Trump wouldn’t care as much. More people would suffer. It’s a small insignificant chance in terms of numbers of bodies on a page, but I truly believe less people fucking die this way. Is that not enough?
How many human beings need to live over the other option to make it worth it to you? For me it’s 1. And I genuinely believe Biden will kill at least 1 less person at least. I am not willing to sacrifice that person on pride.
I believe them both to be incredibly harmful pieces of shit and I don’t have to vote for either. If we’re going to pretend voting in any way matters, then we’re going to have to pretend that representative democracy functions. In a representative democracy you vote for a candidate which you feel represents you, not the candidate you feel is the least bad. In the absence of a representative, you do not vote for someone else, since that would then signal that they represent you.
Was it not enough people whomst harm would have been reduced.
Actually I don’t think doing a genocide is acceptable, even if the genocide happens to brown people. Call me a radical for that.
I understand what harm reduction means, which is why I pointed out how Biden has not reduced harm. Do you understand what the word “reduction” means? Harm reduction isn’t when you signal that “genocide is okay actually, and you don’t have to do anything about abortion or kids in cages or the pandemic or the climate or starvation or the police or the rise of organized fascist movements or anti-lgbtq laws or not arm actual Nazis”.
If it’s any consolation I’m going to not vote for Trump 10.000 times and only not vote for Biden 1.000 times, so that means I’ve actually given Biden 9.000 votes.
Just because voting doesn’t matter in the way it’s advertised doesn’t mean it actually has no effect whatsoever. It does. Just not the one we was told. That means not to rely on voting as the be all end all, but recognizing at times we can shift things ever so slightly away from the worst case scenario.
As for reduction, it doesn’t require biden to do anything other than not make things worse than trump would. You answered the question. You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn’t worth it. If you can’t have good, there’s no point stopping the worst. I do not understand that stance, besides being blinded to material outcome by anger. I do understand anger. I feel it with you. I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don’t have to be on.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough. But right now, with the methods readily available to us, I believe that trump would ruin more of their lives too. I can’t be so angry as to remove myself from the outcome and pretend that it wasn’t my fault.
You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn’t worth it.
Are you illiterate or are you deliberately putting words in my mouth? I am saying that the two candidates are the same. They are equally shit. They’re both terrible. They’re both horrendously harmful in a way that cannot be quantified as one being 0.2% worse or some dumbass take like that.
Just because voting doesn’t matter in the way it’s advertised doesn’t mean it actually has no effect whatsoever.
I do not think voting matters since they both suck. You think voting matters. I am presenting you the logical conclusion to your belief. If voting matters and has the effect which you believe it does, then you believe that representative democracy functions. If you believe that, then you are to vote for a representative, not 0.2% less Hitler.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough.
You don’t. You’re fine with them being massacred. Fuck you you racist piece of shit.
I feel it with you.
You obviously do not, you’re living a comfortable life void of empathy for the suffering of others. If you had that empathy you wouldn’t argue that Joe Biden is a harm reduction candidate because he very obviously isn’t.
I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don’t have to be on.
No you can just allow immigrant children, women’s bodily autonomy, the climate, Palestinians, people of colour, trans people, the poor, ukrainians, houthis, Yemenis, and everyone else who isn’t directly in your comfortable bubble to be a sacrificial block.
When they come for you there will be no one left to cry out, but they will come for you.
There is no point talking anymore. You are angry and resorted to insulting. I understand your anger. I share it with you. I genuinely do. Above all else, understand that.
In the end, neither your nor my actions will do anything at all. Me convincing your or you convincing me has no effect on anything but each other. Understand, please, on my own morals of wanting the least amount of people to suffer at any given time, i just believe less would suffer under Biden. That is enough for me to be unable to not vote.
I’m sorry this has driven us to this angry place. But as a comrade, which we both are, I love you. We are on the same side. Have a good rest of your day friend.
Trump is a less harmful option. Biden is funding Israel’s genocide because he rabidly wants to, at least with Trump there’s a chance he might bail in the middle of it just because he’s bored that day and he wants to cause some drama.
I disagree with that gamble. I’m tired of fighting today. I didn’t mean for this to turn into an argument. I’m going to log off and cool it. Think over what everyone has been saying.
Just wanted to put it out there that we are comrades, even after this disagreement over something we both say ultimately does nothing.
Liberals on were saying that the pro Palestine protests the other day “looked to coordinated to be grassroots” and are “Russian influence” because “they have the same goal as Putin” which is apparently making Biden look like an idiot?
Know how I know these libs have never organized? Because apparently they think protests are when a bunch of randos decide independent of each other to go to a place and hold glib signs. They can’t fathom that there are different groups that meet up and plan where the action will take place.
Removed by mod
Biden is putting Palestinians in the fucking ground, but they’re not your friends, nor people you care about (our only two options will probably both do this, but we must work with these choices God gave us and ignore this). He put migrants in concentration camps, continued the sanctions regime for the starvation of the citizens of enemy nations, and wrought imperialism across the globe. But this is the “same old America” and Biden is only a “straight fascist” when he comes for the precious Americans at home. Well he did that with the crushing of the rail workers strike and the continuation of the same old poverty and racist systems. Is coming for your queer friends the one thing that makes someone a “straight fascist”? Biden could have used federal authority to work towards the suppression of anti-trans laws in backward states, but he didn’t.
I love empty words, but tell me, what does this mean when you passively play the electoral game? What is this “effective change” and “praxis” (“all that good jazz”)?
I was told that a second Trump term would see the U.S. pulling out of NATO (objectively good) and a national abortion ban (the Democrats already allowed Roe v. Wade to be repealed, and the defense among them has been that Biden does not have the power to do anything about this, as, woe, he was born into the wrong branch; given Trump would be the president as well, surely he would not have the power to institute such a ban) along with a bunch of unsubstantiated uncreative Hitler 3.0 stuff like “Trump Youth.”
Biden is putting palastinians in the fucking ground and that is a complaint, but voting or not voting in this election doesn’t change that. That’s not on the table. US is going to commit genocide no matter the winner and it fucking sucks. But what do you want me to do? You want me as a cis straight white man to tell my queer friends that I’m willing to sacrifice their life and safety to make a point? For what? To what end? What’s your preferred outcome here?
At the end of the day, I’m not an accelerationist. I have a preferred outcome here, and no amount of wishing for a 3rd choice will change anything. Not choosing ain’t gonna stop the choice from being made. And I’ll take the, however small, less worse choice than the other.
Voting as well has no effect on your effect you can do in your community. It doesn’t effect the orgs your in or whatever activism your up to. The best case scenario is you own the libs and while they scratch their head wondering for the billionth time why we won’t vote for them and change nothing, more people suffer than would have otherwise.
I am not willing to sacrifice people, especially knowing the groups targeted will not be me.
The dems have pulled this “You’d better vote for us because the other guy will literally kill you if they win!” thing since the 60s, they’ve just shifted around the minority group they target with their threats. Please listen to this 8 minute speech by Malcolm X, it’s incredibly relevant here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
Don’t you see that’s the point? You’re accepting the framework of the two party system. God gave us two options and it would be sacrilege to deny him! You’re allowing the “harm reduction party” to do harm unchecked, where opposing them in any meaningful way is impossible because it leaves the door open for the other party. You’re guaranteeing them unlimited stability so that you can feel good about yourself for “reducing harm” forever. It doesn’t matter if you hate the genocide against Palestinians or imperialism if in the end you have the same total political impact as a geriatric suburbanite pig who loves Amerikkka and the Democrats to the core. Again, what is this nebulous “praxis” you referenced?
If your queer friends care more about the potential “harm reduction” done by staying within the lines and allowing the 2.5th Reich to carry on its crimes unchecked than actually promoting independent political organization by driving votes away from the two “options” while there is mass discontent and the potential for a better future either through abstention or voting/campaigning for PSL, the Green Party, etc., then they’re not worth it.
I’m allowing the harm reduction party to do harm unchecked, and you are wanting people to suffer so they’ll see the error of their liberal ways. What you are advocating for is turning that gun around and firing it until the point is made. I am not okay with sacrificing people to stand on pride. If even one less person would die voting for Biden over trump, that’s my choice in this exact moment in time. I am not willing to sacrifice untolds number of people on the gamble that maybe the libs will get it this time.
You can tell yourself that all you like but we can all see that plainly isn’t true
Yeah dude. And not voting is doing a world of difference. Basically won the revolution already.
Your insulting me for saying i cannot stand on my pride and tell others to sacrifice when I know I will not be the one to suffer. I don’t have a choice in the genocide. Voting Biden, voting trump, voting none ultimately changes nothing because we both are small cogs in the machine. We are still comrades, even if you would rather insult me over it.
Yeah dude voting for the less bad option has done a world of difference. I can feel the harm being reduced already by way of cops getting more money to beat the shit out of me and my friends. The harm feels soooooo reduced after we gave up any pretense of fighting COVID. The harm is just super duper reduced now that roe v. Wade has been overturned. Things have most certainly not gotten worse. Harm reduction is when you signal that genocide is cool and good.
I get your anger. I do not want to argue about it anymore. I got too emotional about this and need to log off and cool it. But I understand your anger and I share it. Im sorry if I implied some kinda moral superiority (bit more than imply) for my reasoning for voting. Ultimately voting does nothing and we both know it. I just cannot get past the reasoning I stated to not vote, but it is my own problem and I shouldn’t of put that on anyone else.
We are still comrades, thank you for trying to convince me, I appreciate your view.
The only accurate statement you’ve made.
They aren’t the “harm reduction” party though. They are the “A lot of harm” party, and they are trying to scare you by saying that the other party, the “Potentially even more harm” party is worse.
Would you rather be shot in the arm or the leg? Which one? Obviously you’d rather neither one, but you MUST choose one. You must! And you must choose again in 4 years, where it will be your spine or your lung to choose from, but you MUST choose then as well.
I’m sorry, but participating in this system in the hopes that it “buys more time” for the libs to “wake up” is incredibly stupid. That’s like participating in bashing someone up in the hopes that the other people bashing them will one day learn their lesson, while you’re actively there, participating in the same actions as them. Don’t you think that will just encourage them instead of waking them up?
If you want things to change, you start by making it clear that things need to change, instead of grumbling and accepting the status quo. Educating people on demanding more out of the system, (and hopefully much further than that) will do far, far more than just simply going along with the system and accepting the idea that being forced to pick between two actively genocidal parties is in any way acceptable. People vote because they, like yourself, seem to think that there is “no other option.” Things will never change if this is how we operate. The way things change is by teaching people that there are alternatives, and they can actually demand things of their government, instead of grovelling and begging, but always falling in line.
Here’s that Malcolm X clip again, since you must’ve missed it the last time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gg3dr-o4_fc
I found a YouTube link in your comment. Here are links to the same video on alternative frontends that protect your privacy:
I watched the video. I watched it again here. The problem for me is that Malcom X is talking about black folk. He is talking about their block and advocating for essentially self sacrifice at the hands of his “worse option” to make a point. I am not black. Nor am I queer. Nor am I a woman. I am not a target. It is not my sacrifice to give. It is not within my right I believe to tell someone who will suffer that it’s necessary to make a point when I know for a fact that I will not suffer. I know for a fact that I wouldn’t be a target. I cannot make that decision in good conscious because I am not the one who will pay that price.
How can you honestly be this dense? We’ve got a dozen people here, all telling you the same thing, and you refuse to get your head out of your own ass and listen to them. VOTING WILL NOT SAVE ANYONE. VOTING ONLY PROVIDES LEGITIMACY TO THIS CORRUPT AND BROKEN SYSTEM THAT HAS GOTTEN THIS BAD DUE TO THIS KIND OF COMPLACENCY. YOU ARE NOT A HERO FOR VOTING FOR A GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL, EVEN IF HE IS GOING UP AGAINST ANOTHER GENOCIDAL WAR CRIMINAL. YOUR VOTE WILL CHANGE NOTHING, AND WILL DO NOTHING EXCEPT STROKE YOUR SMUG EGO. Fuck you.
Literally since the founding of the country we’ve never had 50% or more turnout. People who abstain from voting have been the majority in this country this whole time. If not voting fixed a broken system why isn’t it fixed if the majority already don’t vote?
And your a hero for not voting? Neither of us are. We ultimately will not change anything and this argument will do nothing but effect me and you. I have my reasons, I have explained them. I am sorry if I said explicitly and implied that it was a more moral choice to vote than to not. I let myself get emotional and said things I do not really believe. I cannot in my own mind be okay with not voting for the reasons I stated. This is not a judgement. It was, now it is not.
At the end of the day we are comrades. We have the same goal. I’m sorry we both got angry over something so pointless.
Theyll never get it, thats the point. The third world suffer eternal because liberals dont care if thr wrist bending doesnt work
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You’re not fooling anyone. Go back to Reddit.
And what the fuck has Biden done about any of your concerns? You think he gives a fuck about LGBTQ people?
Oh, here’s your problem! You are thinking like a child. This is what a child thinks elections are. You’ll never understand my position because you don’t understand the problem.
Your words are empty to me because i can tell by your attitude you do not “hear” what i am saying, or even hear the why of anything.
How could you? You are too busy deciding that everything, even genocide, must be viewed through the lens of the coming election.
Good god there’s gonna be a lot of masked liberals “talking sense to the left” coming up, huh?
Get better copypasta, because “don’t you care bout my queer/brown friends?” is already played out.
Wow, perfect! The liberal view in a nutshell. Things only have relevance to libs through the lens of the next election to them. Insight unlocked.
Genocide is a little bit more than a complaint. Especially given that americans are supposed to stop Trump from doing the exact same thing.
You think anyone’s gonna take your unprincipled ass seriously when you call genocide a fuckin “complaint”, you don’t care about queer people motherfucker, you hide behind their struggles trying to maintain your crumbling sense of normalcy
I want Trump to win precisely because liberal cockroaches like you will be forced to pretend to take genocide seriously, and in that way LESS people will indeed suffer, because there will be more pressure to oppose fascism unlike today when even the libs have gone full Nazi
Imagine taking his unprincipled ass serious when he can’t even spell Palestine correct when the fuckin nation’s been in the news for six fuckin months
I’d sacrifice every cishet white Amerikan in this country for any oppressed subject-of-empire in the world in a New York minute. Death to the settler empire, death to the DNC. Voting absolutely does affect my community; do you realize that Biden has sent more military surplus through the 1033 program to PDs all over the country than Trump did with the same amount of time? The cops in my city are two steps and another humvee from being a whole-ass new branch of the military, some City Force-type shit, but “voting doesn’t affect the orgs in my community”, fuckin sure.
I hope to Fuck you’re the first one to learn the consequences of your electoralist garbage.
Yes you fucking are, you’re willing to sacrifice 40,000 Palestinians and counting
Hey as a queer person, fuck you. Get my community out of your fucking mouth. Biden has not done one single thing for me or for my community. Do not support genocide in the name of “protecting queer people.” Genocide does not protect us. Open slaughter of thousands upon thousands of innocent people does not protect us. Hiding behind the queer community in defense of genocide is cowardly and wrong. “Oh yeah well I have a queer friend” is the new white asshole way to say “well I have a black friend!” I am queer and you don’t get to use me as an excuse for genocide.
Thank you for this.
getting a lot of mail out of the facts machine today
What has genocide Joe done to stop fascist state legislatures from passing anti-trans legislation? What has he done to prevent them from forcing women to give birth? What has he done to protect the victims?
I don’t know how to tell you this, but a conservative catholic octogenarian with a lifelong history of supporting racists, homophobes and oligarchs is not going to be a progressive just because there’s a D next to his name.
Those are valid complaints, and all day fuck Joe biden, but at the end of the day I am not an accelerationist. I see no argument from a leftist perspective for not voting for our shitty option unless you think things getting worse will make them better faster. What is the outcome you have in mind? Don’t vote to stick it to the libs, trump gets elected and then we all suffer that much more? For what?
Your choice isn’t between accelerationism or not, it’s how funny your buffoon in chief will be.
Considering the last 4 years of actual events, what makes you think your friends will be any safer under Biden than Trump? He hasn’t stopped any of the anti-trans legislation during his presidency, or anti-abortion, or anti-immigrant - who are you trying to protect? Who do you think you are protecting by voting 100% Hitler instead of 100% Hitler?
It’s the difference between lackluster do nothing, or active harm. Biden hasn’t stopped it but he’s not using his platform to push it. That’s a small difference but it’s a difference that effects actual people. Is one person not enough for you? Either all must be saved or just let other people make the choices? If you can’t have who you want you don’t get the privilege of not getting something. Your going to get something weather you like it or not. And I know I’m not going to be the target under trump. I don’t have the right to say the people who would be targets arent worth it.
Biden is using his platform to push for harmful shit, have you been living under a rock?
The genocide in Palestine is actively sided by the US Regime.
The meat grinder in Ukraine is actively sided by the US Regime and in large part started because of US blustering and has continued in part because of the US sabotaging peace talks.
Roe v Wade was overturned under Biden.
Biden has given more money to the police.
Anti-trans laws are seeing immense popularity under Bidens rule.
The border wall has been expanded.
Biden wants to do Trumps border policies.
The military has gotten more money under Biden.
Biden has been aggressively posturing against China both with Pelosis Taiwan visit and his claims about the “spy balloon” which were quietly retracted.
Biden has expanded fracking.
Biden was the one who decided we could “go back to normal” and declared covid over, despite being in the midst of a pandemic.
Biden is not a passive corpse just trucking along, he has expanded a shitton of awful things. You only perceive this as a status quo because your personal life has not gotten worse. Fuck you.
And how many of these would still be happening under trump? You act like if you don’t vote that there’s a chance neither will happen. One or the other will become a reality. Which would you rather live in for your immediate future? None isn’t an option.
All of them! I am saying they are the same! How can you be this dense? This is me showing you how they are the same! You are arguing for harm reduction and I am showing you harm isn’t being reduced you dumbass brickheaded incompetent dogheaded porridge farmer.
At least people like you pretended to give a shit under Trump.
Stop othering me. We are still comrades here.
I get what your saying. I’m saying that when they both are the same, the degrees by which they commit these atrocities is the only thing up for consideration. In that scenario my morals dictate that I must advocate for the side I thing will ultimately result in less tragedy, even if I believe that to be slight. A single life makes it worth it.
We don’t have to agree friend. I know this is a touchy subject for us, especially now and I’m sorry for implying that I was in any way morally superior for my choice over yours and I hope you feel the same. Ultimately the only thing this conversation effects is me and you right now. My vote and your lack of one will change nothing. Neither of us can stop it. Let us not be angry.
Biden is a fascist, you shouldn’t imply he isn’t.
You can make a 99% Hitler vs 100% Hitler argument if you want to, but you shouldn’t pretend it’s fascism vs no fascism. Zionism is fascism and should be labeled as such.
Zionism is fascism, Biden is a fascist, but Biden ain’t the one talking about declaring himself a dictator. Sure it’s 99 vs 100% Hitler, but there is no other option. And my morals say that when you have a bad choice and a worse choice, you don’t stand on pride and choose none just for the choice to be made for you.
Did Trump ever seriously talk about “declaring himself a dictator”? When you are only given the choices between 99 and 100% Hitler you reject the system and actually utilize the mass discontent instead of voting for the “least bad bad guys” regardless, effectively guaranteeing whatever they do is acceptable as long as they do not become the other guys.
https://apnews.com/article/trump-hannity-iowa-town-hall-d9cad413851b60f6c0abd2a564d86338
Yes, here is him saying it.
My personal or our group rejection of the system has no actual material effect except to make things worse. You can’t just reject society without having the organized structure in place to actively rebel against it. Just not participating does nothing but make things worse.
Voting doesn’t stop you from organizing, unionizing and joining local organizations. It does nothing at all but make things worse. Is your argument accelerationist? Do you want things to get bad before getting better? If not I don’t see the point in your stance. I don’t want to be mean, I don’t mean to be rude. I genuinely do not understand. Do you not care what happens tomorrow?
Freudian slip. It stops you from directing votes away from the two parties and showing that changes have to be made.
And who has to suffer in the meantime while we see if that gamble pays off? I’m just not willing to make that decision. I can’t in good conscious knowing the fact that more people would suffer under trump than Biden. That’s my simple calculus.
This doesn’t mean anything unless your head is still filled with magical liberal thinking. Either he has the power and support to be in power indefinitely or he doesn’t. People who can and will do coups don’t usually care about how you vote.
There is another option lmao, it involves everything around a bourgeoisie democracy
And my moral tells me that if I don’t live in a small pool of like 6 states, there’s absolutely no point in thinking about, let alone voting for, who gets to be president. Not all of us live in Georgia or Michigan. And unless you live in one of those 6 states, congrats, you’ve wasted your time and energy on something you have absolutely no control over.
There is another option. The French knew that when their Kings and Queens told them to eat cake.
The fact you don’t even consider that is sus. Gaslightng even.
Death to Amerika, you settler fuck
Which is it? Dont vote and then shut up, or go out and organize? What you are seeing right now is a variant of people organizing - people going out and talking to each other, convincing that we dont actually have to vote for a genocider and that a better world is possible
I think you misunderstood me. I am saying do not just go vote and then chill. Voting does not stop you from organizing, volunteering and getting involved in your local community and leftist orgs. I’m saying voting is not the be all end all. It’s not the secret weapon. But it is a small, basically functionless tool for harm reduction.
“Harm reduction” is when you have a genocide in Palestine, a ceaseless and pointless meat grinder in Ukraine, kids in cages, expanded border walls, overturned Roe V. Wade, no pushback against anti-trans laws, immense inflation with no help, ignores a pandemic and give more money to the police.
Voting for Biden isn’t harm reduction.
#resist
So you should vote for trump then. If you believe him to be the less harmful of the two options. This is me baiting you to tell me you think trump is a less harmful option. Or did you not understand what harm reduction means? Or was is just not enough people whomst harm would be reduced for you to think it’s worth it? Or is the people’s whos harm would be reduced not be worthy of it?
I cannot in good conscious as a cis straight man tell my non binary partner that they need to be the sacrifice to the political statement of “sticking it to the libs”
Holy shit, I missed this before. You are right now a cis straight man telling me, a non binary person, that the current climate isn’t an increase in harm. You are telling me that what Biden is doing is acceptable.
I didn’t want to pull that card, because it does not matter wether or not I personally experience the direct effects of the obvious fascist, but you pulled that card. Lol, lmao even.
I am not saying shit didn’t get worse under Biden. I am saying between Biden and trump that I believe it would be worse under trump and I do not see it within my rights as a group that wouldn’t be targeted to cross my arms and say that I won’t participate and risk people who would be targeted. I cannot in my own mind be okay with that. It’s not my choice. I’m sorry that I implied moral superiority for this mindset. I understand this is my own personal hangup and I got emotional and argumentive. Sorry.
You are not sorry. It is painfully obvious what you are. This high road act isn’t fooling anyone. If you actually were sorry, then you’d have listened and done some self-crit. You wouldn’t try to diminish the discussion, you would not continue the same question despite having it answered several times, you would engage with the arguments presented or shut the fuck up. You would respect it when you were asked not to take the mantle of friend or comrade upon you. You would actually attempt to understand instead of repeating tired lib-cliches. You wouldn’t attempt to pull several sad debatebro rhetorical tricks. You would reconsider instead of all the sanctimonious pearl clutching you’ve been attempting.
Instead you chose to misgender me.
Fuck you, you are not fooling anyone.
Harm reduction is when you vote for a fascist who arms and funds Nazis in Ukraine, while arming and funding the mass murder of innocent children. Harm reduction is when we decide that genocide is not a red line, this time
Genocide is happening either way, I believe the liberals will do less of a genocide because they at least try to pretend like they aren’t doing it. Trump wouldn’t care as much. More people would suffer. It’s a small insignificant chance in terms of numbers of bodies on a page, but I truly believe less people fucking die this way. Is that not enough?
How many human beings need to live over the other option to make it worth it to you? For me it’s 1. And I genuinely believe Biden will kill at least 1 less person at least. I am not willing to sacrifice that person on pride.
I believe them both to be incredibly harmful pieces of shit and I don’t have to vote for either. If we’re going to pretend voting in any way matters, then we’re going to have to pretend that representative democracy functions. In a representative democracy you vote for a candidate which you feel represents you, not the candidate you feel is the least bad. In the absence of a representative, you do not vote for someone else, since that would then signal that they represent you.
Actually I don’t think doing a genocide is acceptable, even if the genocide happens to brown people. Call me a radical for that.
I understand what harm reduction means, which is why I pointed out how Biden has not reduced harm. Do you understand what the word “reduction” means? Harm reduction isn’t when you signal that “genocide is okay actually, and you don’t have to do anything about abortion or kids in cages or the pandemic or the climate or starvation or the police or the rise of organized fascist movements or anti-lgbtq laws or not arm actual Nazis”.
If it’s any consolation I’m going to not vote for Trump 10.000 times and only not vote for Biden 1.000 times, so that means I’ve actually given Biden 9.000 votes.
Just because voting doesn’t matter in the way it’s advertised doesn’t mean it actually has no effect whatsoever. It does. Just not the one we was told. That means not to rely on voting as the be all end all, but recognizing at times we can shift things ever so slightly away from the worst case scenario.
As for reduction, it doesn’t require biden to do anything other than not make things worse than trump would. You answered the question. You believe that harm reduction as in, avoiding a worse outcome of an already bad outcome isn’t worth it. If you can’t have good, there’s no point stopping the worst. I do not understand that stance, besides being blinded to material outcome by anger. I do understand anger. I feel it with you. I just cannot allow that anger to put people on a sacrificial block they don’t have to be on.
I pain for the palastinians. I cannot express that enough. But right now, with the methods readily available to us, I believe that trump would ruin more of their lives too. I can’t be so angry as to remove myself from the outcome and pretend that it wasn’t my fault.
Are you illiterate or are you deliberately putting words in my mouth? I am saying that the two candidates are the same. They are equally shit. They’re both terrible. They’re both horrendously harmful in a way that cannot be quantified as one being 0.2% worse or some dumbass take like that.
I do not think voting matters since they both suck. You think voting matters. I am presenting you the logical conclusion to your belief. If voting matters and has the effect which you believe it does, then you believe that representative democracy functions. If you believe that, then you are to vote for a representative, not 0.2% less Hitler.
You don’t. You’re fine with them being massacred. Fuck you you racist piece of shit.
You obviously do not, you’re living a comfortable life void of empathy for the suffering of others. If you had that empathy you wouldn’t argue that Joe Biden is a harm reduction candidate because he very obviously isn’t.
No you can just allow immigrant children, women’s bodily autonomy, the climate, Palestinians, people of colour, trans people, the poor, ukrainians, houthis, Yemenis, and everyone else who isn’t directly in your comfortable bubble to be a sacrificial block.
When they come for you there will be no one left to cry out, but they will come for you.
There is no point talking anymore. You are angry and resorted to insulting. I understand your anger. I share it with you. I genuinely do. Above all else, understand that.
In the end, neither your nor my actions will do anything at all. Me convincing your or you convincing me has no effect on anything but each other. Understand, please, on my own morals of wanting the least amount of people to suffer at any given time, i just believe less would suffer under Biden. That is enough for me to be unable to not vote.
I’m sorry this has driven us to this angry place. But as a comrade, which we both are, I love you. We are on the same side. Have a good rest of your day friend.
Trump is a less harmful option. Biden is funding Israel’s genocide because he rabidly wants to, at least with Trump there’s a chance he might bail in the middle of it just because he’s bored that day and he wants to cause some drama.
I disagree with that gamble. I’m tired of fighting today. I didn’t mean for this to turn into an argument. I’m going to log off and cool it. Think over what everyone has been saying.
Just wanted to put it out there that we are comrades, even after this disagreement over something we both say ultimately does nothing.
Why do you think people aren’t organizing
Because they’re a liberal who has never considered political action outside of voting for the anointed dem every 4 years.
Liberals on
were saying that the pro Palestine protests the other day “looked to coordinated to be grassroots” and are “Russian influence” because “they have the same goal as Putin” which is apparently making Biden look like an idiot?
Know how I know these libs have never organized? Because apparently they think protests are when a bunch of randos decide independent of each other to go to a place and hold glib signs. They can’t fathom that there are different groups that meet up and plan where the action will take place.
They didn’t see the march advertised on Twitter with a link to buy your own merchandise before hand so they assume it isn’t a real protest.
That’s true. We all know liberals won protesting with the pussy hat parade.