Would they have all still fought against him?

  • GraniteM@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Isaac Asimov, a very intelligent person, wrote a lengthy essay to the effect that he had no idea what intelligence was. He talked about how society would generally consider him more intelligent than the nearly illiterate man who repaired his car, and yet whenever something went wrong with his car he would go to his mechanic and listen to his advice as if it was being handed down from the mountaintop by Moses himself, because Isaac Asimov knew fuck all about car repair. He talked about how he thought that supposedly objective IQ tests were generally a series of gates designed by people already considered intelligent to keep themselves in power, and that they totally disregarded huge swaths of indispensable human knowledge and talent. Isaac Asimov, who has been published in literally every section of the Dewey Decimal System, concluded that he had no firm idea as to what exactly “intelligence” even was.

    In short, how could one even define “the dumbest 50%”?

    And that’s why Thanos should have made everybody half as large as they once were.

    • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      He talked about how he thought that supposedly objective IQ tests were generally a series of gates designed by people already considered intelligent to keep themselves in power, and that they totally disregarded huge swaths of indispensable human knowledge and talent.

      Modern psychology supports this, too. IQ tests are bullshit, and intelligence is not something that can be reasonably quantified in any meaningful sense without an insane amount of asterisks.

      Also…are we counting kids? Because you’d probably find kids are consistently beneath the 50% line on any generic intelligence measuring criteria someone makes up.

      • ButtholeSpiders@startrek.website
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        9 months ago

        I agree, I took a few IQ tests and scored high and initially it made me wonder is if everyone else was as concerned as I was watching our species being driven into early graves for yearly profit projections.

        Suffice to say, most people I met who scored high lacked the foresight to even think we might be screwed. Which led me to a swift conclusion that your IQ doesn’t mean jack squat, it was a biased system that was simply a biased form of dick measuring.

        Perhaps I’m disillusioned, but the best summary of our species is that old video of a chimpanzee in a zoo pissing in its mouth.

        • KoboldCoterie@pawb.social
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          9 months ago

          Many IQ tests, even ones that claim to be scientific, and especially free ones, artificially inflate the scores they give, to encourage the people taking them to purchase an in-depth analysis of their results.

          Like, “Your IQ is 135! That’s well above average! For $39.99, we’ll give you this in-depth, 18 page question by question analysis showing how you stacked up against everyone else, and what your answers mean!”

      • scarabic@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        snort “modern psychology” calls pseudoscience on someone? That’s my laugh of the day. Thank you!

    • Kahlenar@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Ahhhh the GOAT. Seriously, as a smart kid everything else about me was ignored. Something wrong at school? You CAN do it, so just do it. D&D breaks up mental stats, but there’s even more out there. Int, Wis, Cha to start. Then there’s motivation, happiness, and empathy, and more. The mind is super complex and an int score of 18 being all that matters is like the saying “this hammer solves my nail problem, it will surely solve my window problem.”

        • Gnome Kat@lemmy.blahaj.zone
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          9 months ago

          I can’t get past how weirdly horny Niven was… had to stop reading the second ringworld. That being said Asimov gets weirdly horny in the later foundation novels too. Both of them really liked writing in way older men dating way younger women that just comes off as creepy now.

    • DogMuffins@discuss.tchncs.de
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      9 months ago

      Even with the classic definition of intelligence it’s just useless - not predictive or indicative of anything.

      A student without the skills to learn isn’t going to learn much regardless of whether they’re intelligent.

    • RememberTheApollo_@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I really appreciate Asimov’s thoughts. Ethical hat off for a second - I would suggest removing the most destructive 50%. If someone is truly stupid they might just as well be harmless. However, removing the swathe of the population that engage in violence, greed, etc. would be a far better use of the finger snap than some metric of stupidity.

    • bouh@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      The definition for intelligence changed over the last 2 centuries because we keep discovering how an animal can fit the definition, and intelligence was used to separate humans from animals. Now it’s even worse because people are trying to separate AI from humans.

      I like the concept laid out by Delany: in a novel he describe 3 levels of intelligence based on the understanding of various point of views, but it’s not a ranking.

      The first stage is simplex: people don’t understand the science of the world, so everything is kind of magical but this concept of magic make the world hold itself and they can grasp everything and use everything with this conception of magic.

      Second stage is complex: people have an understanding of science and they can explain many things, but not everything. And when they can’t explain something, they can’t cope with it, because they don’t have the conceptual tools for it. Thus they will either deny this thing existence of plug it into their existing concepts by ignoring the feature that can’t fit.

      Third and last stage is multiplex : people can accept that there are theories different than the ones they know, ideas also. Point of views can shape the way you see the world, and even the scientific theories you have to explain the world can be seen as a point of view on the world, so changing this point of view can bring a new or different understanding of a phenomenon or thing or person. These points of view all coexist at the same time, none of them is more true than the other. Like the concept of magic, this allows to grasp, use or accept even the ununderstandable and the unknown, but with a better ability to understand than the simplex stage.

      I like this model. But it’s more a model for open-mindedness than intelligence. But maybe that’s the thing.

    • scarabic@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Good questions from Asimov. But just like with car repair, he didn’t know this subject. It has been a field of study for a while, and researchers have worked directly on this core problem defining general intelligence distinct from specific knowledge.

      This Veritassium video is a balanced overview of the topic: https://youtu.be/FkKPsLxgpuY?si=iY7QBEQK1DkzNhxI

      Needless to say, no, the IQ test is not a conspiracy by people who are good at number sequence problems to keep themselves in charge of the world.

      • bouh@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        IQ of someone is not stable: it changes depending on how much you train to do it or the mental/psychological state you are in when you pass it. Thus it is not a sound scale to measure anything.

        The fact that it is merely a ranking of people further push it in the realm of straight bullshit.

        • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          How can you possibly measure intelligence separately from the mental state of the person taking the test

        • bleistift2@feddit.de
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          5 months ago

          In Summer the Eiffel tower is higher than in Winter. Does that mean meters are not a sound scale to measure length?

          • bouh@lemmy.world
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            5 months ago

            The metter is not determined by the average height of the eiffel tower. The average height of the effeil tower is measured with the meter. That is the important difference. The meter is also based on constant of physics, and has a very precise definition. You can’t say the same of IQ.

    • MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      And that’s why Thanos should have made everybody half as large as they once were.

      Holy cow. However intelligence is defined, you’re smarter than I am. That would have been a really short film.

      …and I’m just realizing that universe would look pretty much exactly like those little kid Marvel Adventures shows…

      • GraniteM@lemmy.world
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        5 months ago

        Found it!

        The essay is “Thinking About Thinking,” ©1989, collected in the book Magic: The Final Fantasy Collection.

    • Willy@sh.itjust.works
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      9 months ago

      sorry to stop the circlejerk, but this is dumb. an intelligent person could learn to repair the car more easily and have more insight than a moron. intelligence exists and we all experience it everyday. the wais-r is a relatively good test, but no there is never going to be a perfect way to measure intelligence. you can say intelligence is just what the test measures which is really pretty non biased, but that’s reducing things too much. y’all know morons and people that are crazy fucking smart. experience in different subjects is distributed, but the ability to gain experience quickly is the biggest difference.

  • idiomaddict@feddit.de
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    9 months ago

    Hang on, do you mean “with the least capacity to be smart,” or is he killing all the babies and children?

  • pwnicholson@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    They’d still be appalled and try to stop him given their strong moral code. And given that they’d be at full strength they’d probably find a way to stop him and reverse things faster than they did in OTL

    • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      I’m frankly astonished anyone could genuinely think the Avengers would ever somehow be more ok with letting Thanos kill “only the stupid people”. Like…that’s a very strange read on these characters to think they’d ever react any differently in this scenario.

      But even if they were so morally and ethically bankrupt to think it may not be such a bad idea, the truth is killing “the dumber 50%” is still causing catastrophic secondary effects. People would lose loved ones. That’s enough of a reason to go Avenging.

      Hell, how are we defining “dumb”? Because you may have just murdered every child under a certain age.

    • MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
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      7 months ago

      And given that they’d be at full strength they’d probably find a way to stop him and reverse things faster than they did in OTL

      Good point. But I dunno. Thor is a big power loss, and unless Captain America gets a free pass for emotional intelligence counting, they’re short in leadership, too.

  • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    Would they have all still fought against him?

    I know this is No Stupid Questions but…come on.

    Why on Earth would the Avengers react any differently? Is the assumption that they’re morally bankrupt enough to actually reconsider in this scenario? That somehow letting “stupid” people be murdered is ever, in any way, acceptable?

  • phoenixz@lemmy.ca
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    9 months ago

    50% was such a dumb number anyways.

    It requires a single doubling to get back to where we were. To double, you’d need about 10 times a 7% growth. Probably within less than 100 years you’d be back at the same problem

    Not to mention that when you murder a shit tonne of people, and when it’s over you’ll likely have lots of people getting babies, so you get a birth wave about 9 months later. That regrowth starts FAST.

  • RightHandOfIkaros@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I mean, he could have just created 200% more resources as well. Or he could have equally redistributed all the resources. The problem he was trying to solve would still eventually happen again, because solving the problem relies on everyone working unselfishly, which is simply not possible when humans are involved.

    • lazylion_ca@lemmy.ca
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      9 months ago

      I think he should have cut the pregnancy rate to a third of what it is now. No one would notice. No one would die or be missed. There’d just be a lot less people within fifty years.

      • AngryHumanoid@reddthat.com
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        9 months ago

        OK while that would be a better idea the thought that no one would notice is laughable. We have detailed pregnancy rate records going back 75 years, an immediate 30% change would definitely raise a lot of red flags.

    • CrabAndBroom@lemmy.ml
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      9 months ago

      I think he should have made everyone half size. Then they would have only needed half as many resources plus there’s a little tiny, angry Spiderman jumping around.

      • MrZee@lemm.ee
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        9 months ago

        I kinda like the idea of randomly distributing how much each person gets shrunk. Each person ends up anywhere from 99.9% to 0.1% of their original size. Think of the added chaos it would create.

        • Chriszz@lemmy.world
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          9 months ago

          This would make a great short story. People would probably divorce and marry based on size

          • MrZee@lemm.ee
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            9 months ago

            Yeah, I feel like it would create a hell of a lot more chaos than half the world disappearing. And hijinks. And genocide.

    • ThiefOPA
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      9 months ago

      Actually a good point. He should have just done that.

  • MTK@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    The real question is which avengers would be gone. Putting my money on Thor

    • Moobythegoldensock@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      Thor, Starlord, Drax, and Mantis would all be toast. Steve, Bucky, and Falcon are tossups because I think their intelligence is supposed to be about average.

      • MTK@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        If Thor is on the upper half of intelligence in his kind then…

      • MajorHavoc@lemmy.world
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        7 months ago

        Good point, technically. But… We all know Thor would be gone. There’s no way the rightful heir to the throne of Asgard is in their top 50% intelligence.

  • PreparaTusNalgasPorque@kbin.social
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    9 months ago

    I think the whole 50% depopulation is a flawed premise, of the hundred of thousands of years modern humans have existed that would throw total population back to… 1970

    • swordsmanluke@programming.dev
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      9 months ago

      Yup. His movie motivation was dumbed down. The whole resources thing is stupid for exactly this reason.

      In the comics, Thanos became infatuated with the Marvel Universe incarnation of Death. …And naturally he figured that if he killed half the universe at once, he’d get her attention. (cause girls love it when a boy makes a huge amount of work for them…)

      Anyway, his plan was still moronic, but “manchild does stupid thing to impress girl” is a classic for a reason.

    • deweydecibel@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      It wasn’t just humans, it was the whole universe. He wasn’t concerned with how each individual species’ populations would fluctuate, he just had a solution in his head and went with it.

      Ya know, the “mad Titan” thing.

    • Dalvoron@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      There is an addendum to his plan that might have made it make sense. If he had said something like “I’m giving the universe the chance to make better decisions”, suddenly having half as many people means (probably a little more than) half resource consumption, half the carbon emission, and more time to figure out and implement solutions to these problems. I’m not sure how the housing crisis would pan out, I expect it would get worse. It also makes more sense that he destroys the stones after “I gave the universe its chance, now the ball is in its court”.

      This also solves the doubling resource problem. His motives are to pressure people to change their ways. Giving them more stuff might cut hunger, but you’ll just have that hunger again in 50 years and we’d probably increase carbon output to boot, and destroy more environment to get these doubled resources.

      I don’t know enough about the stones to say whether “infinite resources” or whatever cheat code would have worked, but they certainly could have dropped a line that it wasn’t possible, or that it would cause more problems than it solved (how does chemistry even work in this universe? If nothing ever gets used in reactions then the chemistry that makes our bodies work is borked)

      But anyway, as the Russos did not put this line in, the premise was flawed

  • IphtashuFitz@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I think it largely depends on his definition of “dumb”…. Given he’s already committed to wiping out half of all life, I’d consider his mental facilities to be of questionable intellect already. His idea of who is dumb may be similarly questionable…

  • Annoyed_🦀 🏅@monyet.cc
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    9 months ago

    Dude, he killed Vision and Gamora and other people close to the member of Avengers, no way they gonna let him off the hook.

  • 🇰 🔵 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
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    9 months ago

    Why couldn’t Thanos just wish for unlimited resources? Or universal peace? Or literally any number of things that would have solved the problems he was trying to solve without anyone getting hurt or never existing? His method was stupid.

    • DudeBro@lemm.ee
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      9 months ago

      I think that the motive should be allowed to be dumb, and their mistake was making Thanos appear lucid and competent. They really should have leaned into “the mad titan” thing and made him act more like an unhinged despot.

      • WHYAREWEALLCAPS@lemmy.world
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        9 months ago

        Right? Nothing about him seemed really that insane or unhinged. Even killing Gamora, his adopted daughter that he appeared to care for, can be explained as him doing whatever it takes, not being insane. Even what he did to Nebula came off, to me, as just him being extreme in his desire for her obedience and perfect, like any other obsessed and controlling parent.

        Honestly, he came off more as the “annoyed Titan” than anything else.

      • 🇰 🔵 🇱 🇦 🇳 🇦 🇰 ℹ️@yiffit.net
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        9 months ago

        That would have at least made his non-sense make sense. If he’s crazy, he gonna do crazy shit. That may even be why I have always preferred the over-the-top cartoon villains. They were insane, and their plots didn’t have to make sense because they were insane.

        “I’m gonna blow up the world!”

        “But, um… aren’t you part of the world?”

        “Shut up, you and pull the lever!”

  • dangblingus@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    He also could have just created trillions more planets so that there wouldn’t be natural resource shortages. Nope. Gotta murder quadrillions of life forms.

  • SpiralSong@lemmy.world
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    9 months ago

    I always wondered if your goal is to reduce population. Why not just make half the people infertile?

    • lazylion_ca@lemmy.ca
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      9 months ago

      Has to be more than that. People can have multiple children and probably would have more just because they can. It’d need to be cut to at least one third or less.

    • SimpleMachine@lemmy.world
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      9 months ago

      Non-zero chance that the distribution of infertility does not match the distributions of male to female. Could result in complete population collapse pretty quickly.