I am so irony poisoned I genuinely though
was the original orientation
“Um, actually, honestly, at least in WW2 Italy the trains ran on time, unlike Gommunism Vulvulzula Gorillion Dead.”
I wish anyone who throws around the word tankie could define it in real politik terms instead of “it means facist, to me” or “muh authoritarianism and imperialism.” What are the “tankie” political theories that they disagree with? Anti-colonialism? Anti-capitalism? Peace before war when in power? Closed door approaches to capital infiltration as state defense tactics? Planned economy?
I guess this is just a normal response to the existential horror that you’ve been poisoned by capital and told it was medicine and now have to look the demons of capital in the face and try to deal with it.
The only common thread I’ve noticed is that it always refers to an imperial core person admiring something foreign. You’re somehow not a tankie if you’re actually from China and you’re a Marxist-Leninist. In that case you’re just an authoritarian. But if you’re from Canada and you say nice things about China? Then you’re a tankie.
There’s some kind of nationalist brainworm built into the term. There’s some kind of conception that foreigners just do socialism incorrectly, but white people can do it properly through…I don’t know, voting every 4 years, or begging for it nicely or making a utopian settlement in the woods. But if you’re a white person who wants revolutionary socialism, you’ve allowed scary foreign devils to pollute your mind and you’re a tankie now. Telling liberals that being a “tankie” is the overwhelmingly most normal position for communists worldwide shortcircuits their brains. They can only conceive of three types of communists: Idiot white teenagers from imperialist countries, cynical dictators, and brainwashed foreigners who can’t think properly because they’re foreign.
Way too many times I’ve been talking with someone who called me a tankie, and I ask them why it seems like China and Vietnam have such high approval for their respective states. That’s when it starts coming out. They’ll say communism is just a better fit for their culture, or that the people there are more easily brainwashed, or that the approval ratings are all lies. It’s so racist and disgusting.
Yeah, I can see that. Just inherent nationalism and racism but it’s acceptable because gommunism bad
I get it. We’re in our third financial crisis “of a lifetime.” You can’t afford a groceries, restaurants, cars, healthcare, or a house. Rights are stripped away from us daily. Neo-nazis are even more mainstream than Nazis in West Germany. We are told things are looking up, but we all know things are worse than ever. What can we do if all we know is vote blue (or UK labour)? Scream at the void. Blame someone, anyone. An amorphous blob with no more meaning than a comic book villain becomes the outlet for capitalism’s torture, and it is not questioned until it is confronted by Lemmy users, in what you thought was a shitposting meme about le china.
The most important and foundational aspect of fascism is anti-communism
Is this instance another lemmmygrad? Supporting the CCP and all its antics?
we’re evil communists here to, uh, feed the poor, secure housing for everyone, oppose violence against innocent people. you know, all those horrible things liberals kill people for
You can be communists but dont be tankies. Dont try one language and one culture everywhere, also stop veing against the lgbtq.
Remind me again which country had state sponsored gay bars?
Which country has the most LGBTQ-friendly family laws? 
(hint for the second one: it’s the same country that covers transistion in its state-sponsored health care 
)Can you point me towards further reading on these state sponsored gay bars? It sounds really cool and I’d love to know more!
I’ll go looking for something that isn’t just a quirky online article, but it’s been a while since I read about it and it wasn’t in English sadly. I know I’ve seen other users on here post about it (with sources) so I know there is some stuff in English.
A little bit of search found me this article https://www.jstor.org/stable/2500548 which looks to be ok, but it is written by a former spy and smuggler, so I don’t feel like I can vouch for it.
I think @[email protected] is from a former eastblock country, and she seems very knowledgeable on the area (or at least about everyday life - I’ve seen her write about restaurant culture and the like) so maybe she has some good sources in English. I don’t know if it was her that was talking about queer zines worrying about the fall of the GDR.
There’s also this thread from two years ago
Dont try one language and one culture everywhere, also stop veing against the lgbtq.
Nobody here supports “one language and one culture everywhere” and this site has so many lgbt people, like I think all or at least the strong majority of the mods and admins, and I estimate at least a third or more of the regular users are some flavor of lgbt.
also stop veing against the lgbtq.
Oh, buddy, you must have no idea where you are.
you’re talking to an instance that’s 70% LGBT - would appreciate if you didn’t condescend to tell us what’s good for us.
China? What does china have to do with being anti-fascist? Umm sweety you just did an whataboutism
Fascists and tankies are the same to me, neither have voting rights and both want to eradicate minority cultures. Only wanting a homogeneous societies.
Im a socialist myself, but CCP ideology just means only a few people get to stay in power just like feudal lords.
Fascists and tankies are the same to me, neither have voting rights and both want to eradicate minority cultures.
Which is why the concepts of “whole process peoples democracy” and “mass line” originate in China. And why China exempted minorities from the one child policy and does affirmative action in schooling and government positions
Im a socialist myself
You’re objectively misinformed first, allegedly socialist second
I’m sorry but you’re just doing Kremlin propaganda, whataboutism is an old Soviet trick to change the subject of discussion. Please stay on topic or I’m gonna have to label you a disinformatskayia bot
I am on topic, u just couldn’t counter me.
You still haven’t defined any of the terms you use, nor have you engaged with the many users engaging you in good faith, nor have you postes any sources or any back-up for your claims. Hey real quick post hog chud
I'm sorry I don't engage with disinformation bots
it’s pretty clear you’re not interested in a good faith discussion, since every user that has engaged with you on those grounds are being ignored, talked over or deliberately misinterpreted. Thus all you get is
because you are clearly a child that does not deserve any higher level of discourseBe a communist but dont think that CCP are communists, they are nothing but new age fuedal lords.
Based on what buddy? Hit me with your state dep drivel, come one let’s see your zenz sources. Let’s see some radio free Asia or some long since debunked malcalculus of 50 bazillion dead that counts “people that would have been born” and dead nazis.
Also the PRC doesn’t claim to be communist you fucking idiot. No investegation, no right to speak.What is “feudal” about them to you? These words have meanings and you use them as though they’re just vibes or something.
call me when the SEESEEPEE has aircraft carriers in the gulf of mexico the way amerikkka has aircraft carriers in the south china sea. call me when china is building military bases in other countries without their consent the way Amerikkka keeps guantanamo bay open despite the cuban government not consenting to it for over 60 years. Call me when China has over 800 military bases all around the world. Call me when China is couping, sanctioning, embargoing, and assassinating anyone who inconveniences their foreign policy. Call me when you have something besides disproven atrocity propaganda from Adrian Zenz.
Dont ask me, im not American.
You’re not Chinese either, but you care a whole lot about that
Please, you’re spiritually a burgerland inhabitant
‘I’m a leftist but I think everything to actually do with leftism is bad. Everyone knows real leftism is when you vote for the anticommunist girlboss liberal who wants to means test food stamps more and subsequently raise the military budget by 50%, slava ukraini’
shut the fuck up liberal
Death to America
Im not liberal, im a socialist.
And im not American either :)
A socialist that, upon seeing a picture of mussolini, goes “yeah but what about china?”
Seems like you have some weird priorities.Im not liberal, im a socialist.
A “socialist” who believes capitalist propaganda and refers to the largest and most successful actually existing socialist state’s functionality as “antics”? Sounds pretty liberal to me.
And im not American either :)
The person you’re replying to wasn’t suggesting that you were. He signs all his comments with that phrase at the end, and strangely enough, it’s almost always fitting.
Anyway, yes, this instance does tend to try to talk about China accurately, and it does so in the face of overwhelming torrents of western propaganda cultivated by the capitalist’s/imperialist’s demonization of the state that poses the largest contemporary threat to their hegemony.
I just edited my comment to fix my use of “they/their” into “he/him” as per the other commenter’s pronouns. I mention this specifically because you said in another comment for us to “stop being against lgbtq.” This instance is the most lgbtq-positive space I’ve ever encountered on the internet. We frequently get hated on by transphobes because we include pronouns next to usernames. We were, and to my knowledge still are, the only instance to do so.
Why do you sound like an American liberal tho?
look at this lib
at what point in your life do you become the sort of person to get defensive over people making fun of Mussolini
Only no, make fun of Mussolini by all means, but dont think CCP and Soviet actions arent any different, both wanted to eradicate minorities and built concentration camps, both were against the lgbtq.
For a socialist you sure do spend a lot of time bashing succesful revolutionary projects and you sure do spend a lot of time downplaying the actions of fascists
I dont complain about Vietnam. They never caused problems to their neighbours.
Downplay fascists all you want. But Tankies arent very different from fascists.
Oh hey neat once again you didn’t engage with the one that gave you actual facts, it’s almost as if you’re not interested in a good faith discussion.
Define Tankie without the word “authoritarian”.
Define authoritarian.
And then go do some research on the “crimes” you claim, but try something other than the black book of communism or similar dreg. You’re not gonna tho, because you’re not interested in learning. If you were you would have engaged with the many resources put available to you.
I’ve made it easy tho here’s a linkI’m not the one equating genociders with ahistorical claims of - well you haven’t really described anything yet, but since you’re just a garden variety lib it’s probably either gonna be
or 
. If all you do is critique successful socialist revolutions, then it doesn’t matter what you identify as, you are in fact just a lib. If all you do is critique based on no investigation then you are in fact just a lib.Edit: I also forgot to mention that neither the PRC nor the USSR claims or claimed to be socialist or communist, which is something you would know if you did the bare minimum of research.
Downplay fascists all you want. But Tankies arent very different from fascists.
The historical origin of the term tankie is CPGB members getting mad that Khruschev put down an antisemitic, fascist, CIA-backed fake revolution in Hungary lol.
“Hello fellow leftists I think crushing fascists with tanks is the same as crushing civilians with tanks”
fuck outta here
I dont complain about Vietnam. They never caused problems to their neighbours.
It’s always about civility and lawns with liberals. 😫
Its funny how libs that think they’re socialists or very left, or whatever may have one AES that for some reason is okay. Vietnam with this lib, I’ve seen some that believe all the State Dep shit, except about Cuba. Its like, why just that one place? Have you considered the rest?
With Vietnam in particular, some US liberals have a sort of guilt thing because of the Vietnam war, but something both Cuba and Vietnam have in common (with respect to both): They’re not very big, they’re not very powerful. I think the support you sometimes see for them is extremely dependent on them remaining largely powerless. Kind of the same reason for the whole “supporting every revolution, except the ones that succeeded” thing.
Also, with Cuba in particular, for many of them it was the family planning law that made Cuba the most LGBT-friendly nation on earth. Like, people who shat on Cuba and derided it as “authoritarian” before that had a sudden change of heart, almost as though it was the first real thing they learned about Cuba and it fucking blew their minds or something.
You literally came into a thread where people are dunking on Mussolini and started pissing and crying saying we’re bigots. You made up some wild claims about the people here being anti-lgbtq (lol) in another comment thread; you clearly don’t understand any of our positions and if I had to guess you know all you know about politics from either streamers, clowns, or both.
yes
We’re just a bunch of goofballs up to no good
Why does being against facism trigger you Also its CPC not “See See Pee”
没有共产党，就没有新中国
“without the communist party, there would be no new China”
I for one am pro-antics.
Putting Uigyurs in concentration camps, being against the LGBTQ, colonising Tibet and eradicating their language and culture. Disputing borders with every neighbour. Claiming control for the entire South China Sea.
Putting Uigyurs in concentration camps
According the the fundamentalist Arian Zenz who is on a ‘divine mission from god to destroy the ccp’, but according to UN represenativies who have actually visited the region; https://www.ohchr.org/en/statements/2022/05/statement-un-high-commissioner-human-rights-michelle-bachelet-after-official?fbclid=IwAR2AOnouU529HJwYiZphgIyD4ZgRaK5la7x03mJ5Ep5r75S2glpXXS_3LfY
being against the LGBTQ
https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/07/11/china-court-rules-against-forced-conversion-therapy while the US and other Western states still has gay conversion torture legal and active in many states
colonising Tibet and eradicating their language and culture.
Eradicating the slave theocracy ruling Tibet, with the support of the Tibetan working class you mean?
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2009/feb/10/tibet-china-feudalism
guarantees the freedom of Tibetan compatriots to use and develop their own spoken and written language
Putting Uigyurs in concentration camps
Where are your sources for this? The report that lies to ground for the claims of the genocide of uyghurs which concludes 1.3-2 million detainees was based on interviews with only 8 Uyghur individuals, then extrapolated to form percent estimates on the population of detainees in the XUAR
the whole story about uyghur "unrest was a CIA narrative planned to destabilize China, top US army Chief admits. 2018.
More than 35 countries defend China over mass detention of Uighur Muslims in UN letter and despite china apparently being anti-muslim the country has significant support from islamic states.
Educate yourself.Anti-lgbtq
Being against LGBTQ? Sure they could be better and they have some weird boomer gripes about “sissy men”. At least gay conversion therapy isn’t legal. If that level of anti-lgbt makes you vehemently opposed to a government, then I hope you’re spending your days firebombing your local police station (I hope you’re doing that no matter what, but also I would enjoy ideological conistency)
colonising Tibet
Oh no my poor slaveowning theocracy how horrible that that stopped! Le wholesome dalai lama definitely should have slaves the poor guy.
eradicating their language and culture
By having them speak and read tibetan? Okiedokie
Disputing borders with every neighbour
China has an ongoing border conflict with India that’s about it. If border conflicts make a country heinous, them I’m sorry but you can’t support Canada or Denmark, since they are disputing Hans Island.
Claiming control for the entire South China Sea.
China claiming the checks notes South China Sea? How dastardly! Next you’ll tell me it claims control of beijing!
Damn you really thought you had something there
Of all the claims against China, the one I always find the strangest is that they want to control the South China Sea. As opposed the US who wants to control like every ocean with its Navy?
Ccp aint even communists… its like any other capitalistic country
They just have the word in their name. Doesnt mean shit.
Just like the countries with the word “democratic” in their full name, are the least democratic of all. (Democratic republic of congo… its actually a dictatorship)
Full disclosure I’m half educating half trolling:
The Democratic People’s Republic of Korea has a better constitution than the US. Instead of a president appointing all of the heads of executive departments people get to vote for them.
A party of 90 million members and 500,000 municipal level labor cohorts voting in local and regional elections to create a central goverment that defuses most of its authority to regional economic blocs is far more democratic than any of the horseshit top down neoliberal technocracy that passes as “democracy” in the west
Harvard University’s Ash Center released a 2020 study of Chinese public opinion showing that, as of 2016, “95.5 percent of respondents were either ‘relatively satisfied’ or ‘highly satisfied’ with Beijing,”
[…]
Li: At the moment, the Chinese the party state has proven an extraordinary ability to change. I mean, I make the joke: “in America you can change the political party, but you can’t change the policies. In China you cannot change the party, but you can change policies.” So, in the past 66 years, China has been run by one single party. Yet the political changes that have taken place in China in these past 66 years have been wider, and broader, and greater than probably any other major country in modern memory.
Pilger: So in that time China ceased to be communist. Is that what you’re saying?
Li: Well, China is a market economy, and it’s a vibrant market economy. But it is not a capitalist country. Here’s why: there’s no way a group of billionaires could control the Politburo as billionaires control American policy-making. So in China you have a vibrant market economy, but capital does not rise above political authority. Capital does not have enshrined rights. In America, capital — the interests of capital and capital itself — has risen above the American nation. The political authority cannot check the power of capital. That’s why America is a capitalist country, and China is not.
from https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
also hey look, you’re in this picture:
Marxists view “success” as improving people’s lives, i.e. increasing the amount of wealth each individual has, getting people out poverty, improving life expectancy, improving literacy, improving home ownership rates, improving access to health care, so on and so forth.
Liberals view “success” as bringing people “freedumb and democrazy”, even if that entails completely destroying their living standards, killing tons of people, driving people into immense poverty, preventing their country from developing.
But it makes no sense because if “democracy” comes from the Greek, “demos kratia,” meaning, “people’s power.” If the people actually had the power, why would they not use the political institutions to improve their livelihoods? So how do liberals reconcile this contradiction that you can have “democracy” while at the same time not having expected outcomes from democracy?
They resolve this contradiction by reducing “democracy” down to mere rituals. If you perform the rituals, you’re a “democracy.” If you don’t, you’re a ”dictatorship." The actual outcomes of the rituals don’t matter, if people’s lives aren’t improving, if they’re even getting worse, it’s all justified as long as people are performing the correct rituals.
This makes liberal understanding of “democracy” better understood as a state religion rather than any actual real desire to give power to the people. They, in fact, always, consistently, praise the destruction of living standards as long as those rituals get to be performed. Libya is a great example of this, but so is all of eastern Europe, so is the million who died of COVID in the US while they call China “authoritarian” for protecting its people.
So if you look at global poverty over the last (say) 40 years or so, there’s been a downward trend. Take China out, no downward trend. The World Bank likes to crow about how their policies have lead to the lowest levels of poverty in history, but if you look at places like sub Saharan Africa and Latin America where the World Bank and the IMF have been most active, poverty has been stagnant at best and actively increasing at worst - something the UN has remarked upon repeatedly.
So what gives? If China is just like any other capitalistic country, why is poverty going down there so much faster than anywhere else? Is the fact that China has been so apparently successful at reducing poverty and food insecurity an endorsement of authoritarianism?
