Too obvious to be funny, but i still wanted to draw a shitpost.
I was just thinking about how many lins are 100% convinced that if you try to provide universal public housing to everyone you must also do a bunch of genocides and have one spy per person in your society and have no food.
Every liberal work of fiction is about how good things are actually bad
Lins?
I think he misspelled lib.
Btw what we mean by liberals is the original political term for those who support capitalism, not the colloquial American synonym for Democrat that alt-right types use. Conservative and libertarians are also liberals strictly speaking because they also subscribe to the same basic underlying ideology.
Edit: quoting the relevant part
In Europe and Latin America, liberalism means a moderate form of classical liberalism and includes both conservative liberalism (centre-right liberalism) and social liberalism (centre-left liberalism). In North America, liberalism almost exclusively refers to social liberalism.
Conservative and libertarians are also liberals strictly speaking because they also subscribe to the same basic underlying ideology.
How can you say such a thing! There’s a full 16pt difference in our preferred tax rates and we still can’t agree on the exact specifications of the worker visa program for illegal residentsOld joke, the Soviet Union could’ve avoided collapse if instead of having one official state party, they had two, and they agreed on absolutely everything except abortion.
There’s actually a lot to be said about the concept of “competitive” (not necessarily democratic) elections and how they increase the stability of a political system by shifting people’s perceptions of what is wrong, that’s part of what Fritz Bartel talks about in “The Triumph of Broken Promises”, the neoliberal period imposed extremely harsh conditions on people but everybody went along in the end because they felt that they had a choice in the matter (lol) meanwhile the eastern block states wanted to try doing austerity but they knew the people would never stand for it.
Also ties into Chomsky’s observation that compliance with a political economy regime is done by having a narrow band of acceptable opinions but fierce debate within the band.
Didn’t know he made that point, very astute
I think he misspelled lib.
Or did he?
We really gotta get more unique words for things.
Not really, terms should be historically constituted and there is a serious amount of self-codification among liberal theorists that makes the term extremely useful
There are only eight subspecies of liberalism that actually matter to real world politics, and they cover everything between anarcho-capitalists to DNC blue no matter who libs
Classical liberalism, utopian liberalism, social liberalism, neoliberalism, ordoliberalism, dirigisme, siege liberalism, and the mutated step-child fascism, these are the actual differentiations among the defenders of capitalism
There is only confusion on this matter because utopian, social and neo liberals successfully appropriated a mountain of socialist and anarchist lingo and incoherently applied it to themselves. I don’t blame them, liberalism is deprived of any genuine vision of human progress or solidarity, it wears the liberatory spirit of anti-capitalist ideologies like a carnival mask and as a result millions of potential radicals end up confused as to where they stand in the struggle over capitalism
Hey I just wanted to stop in and say thanks for being patient, the whole terminology thing around ideologies is one of the more confusing barriers to entry into leftist thought but you’re working thru it like a champ
You’ve already been linked the Wikipedia definition which is super helpful but I’m gonna paste the first bit again because it’s worth reading more times, for fluent lefties as well:
Liberalism is a political and moral philosophy based on the rights of the individual, liberty, consent of the governed, political equality, right to private property and equality before the law. Liberals espouse various views depending on their understanding of these principles but generally support private property, market economies, individual rights (including civil rights and human rights), liberal democracy, secularism, rule of law, economic and political freedom, freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of religion, constitutional government and privacy rights.
Based on this, all democrats and pretty much all republicans and libertarians are liberals, and that’s on purpose. This is what we mean when we throw punches at “libs” - we all believe that some of these qualities are good, but libs believe that all of these things are good - we don’t terribly like things like “equality before the law” (it’s just as bad for Jeff Bezos to steal a loaf of bread from a supermarket as it is for a houseless person), “freedom of the press/speech” (your freedom of the press is legally endowed on you just as it is to Elon Musk or Rupert Murdoch even though their actual freedom of the press is millions of times what yours is because they own billion dollar news and speech platforms), “right to private property” (you have the right to own dozens of resort properties just like Donald Trump does), etc. Liberalism - democrat, Republican, and libertarian - is built on the idea that everyone can use dollars and power and status to exercise their rights to whatever degree they want to, and one of our biggest reasons for calling them out under their shared umbrella of liberalism is that they all share the same fallacious worldview that allows people with more dollars to have more fundamental enshrined rights, and even though people with very few dollars can’t actually exercise any of their fundamental enshrined rights, liberals pretend they have the same rights just because they could exercise them if they had more money.
Gotcha. Thanks for the additional information. Politics can get muddy real fast, and terms can be abused or misused to create confusion.
that’s why we stick to the definitions used globally and historically and avoid the colloquial usage. culture changes but history is already written.
It’s a problem. Libertarians stole “libertarian” for the Anarchists. “Liberal” now means you want to paint a rainbow on the bomb. People think “Conservatism” is a real thing but Nazis aren’t. Most people have no idea what Anarchism, Communism, or Socialism actually entail, let alone the enormous breadth of thouaght across the length.
I don’t know about what they were saying exactly but we did have someone come in earlier and start by calling us intolerant tankies and then have a meltdown over some of our non binary users using neopronouns, I can find the link if you want it
lmao
I think it’s a typo for “libs,” since n and b are next to each other on an English keyboard.
Well, that makes no sense then.
Like CriticalOtaku said in this thread, here on Hexbear, if someone says “libs,” we mean liberal in the older sense of the word.
I see. Well, I guess that’s the problem with a federated social media system. Rules for the entire system, with identical subs, and never really knowing where you are.
What’s this hexbear instance about?
we are a left unity instance. we are composed mostly of MLs and anarchists, so we are opposed to imperialism
So would it be a good place for a democratic socialist?
That fucking emote holy shit
HOLY SHIT THAT’S BOBBY DROP TABLES HIMSELF
You know, we have a little drop tables ourselves. 😏
On a scale from 1 to 10, how accurate do you think this meme is?
11
Your revolutionary spirit is much appreciated
Yep. They lie about themselves and they’re opponents. Just like their opponents do in an opposing direction. They lie to make the opponents look worse and themselves look better.
Just like you’ve done here.
Exaggeration of “enemy” faults while downplaying your own.
Check the modlog, Doug, there is no exaggeration.
Don’t need to. Saw how your users here descended upon my home instance the other day. You’re hardly without blame around here
Both sides. Concern troll. Civility. Blah blah blah. Post examples or fuck off.
Me: You guys acted more aggressive in my instance than this comic portrays
You: Both sides. Concern troll…
Posted an example elsewhere. Someone being a far bigger piece of shit doesn’t mean you are incapable of being kinda crappy yourself. We’re very far from anything resembling a both sides thing here
The one example you posted elsewhere (that I can find in your posts, you still won’t like or make it clear for others) is this comment which is a bit ranty and online for my personal tastes, but I don’t have any problem with the content of.
More importantly though, cherry picking the most (ironically) all caps reply you got here is not the same as providing evidence of Hexbear users “acting much more aggressively in my instance”. So you still haven’t provided anything to back up the claim you’ve made all over this thread. So yeah, plenty of people here will rightly doubt your sincerity.
I didn’t link anything specifically for two reasons. For one, I didn’t feel obligated to go sifting through a post I didn’t especially enjoy the first time. For two, it was an effort to meet the same energy as “check the modlog”.
Was I right in either of those, maybe not. I’ll own that.
On the other hand if you don’t have any notable issues with that comment I have my doubts you’d be more critical of anything I’ve seen on my instance.
But at the end of the day we’re all different people with different insights and opinions. Am I wrong about how a comment reads to me and you’re right? Is it the other way around? Neither. We’re both right about how it reads to us. But that’s not likely to change how you view my sincerity.
I’ve made my point with a good faith addendum on the slightest off-chance I’m wrong about your intentions, so I refer you to that, and with that I’m disengaging.
Fuck do you mean, Doug, are you denying all the apologia, fascism, colonialism, racism, sexism, ablism, and homophobia that occurred? And I wasn’t there but I sure hope they gave the liberals of your instance hell for their imperialist views.
They came in with broad sweeping statements and assumptions paired with judgements and wishes of harm based in nothing but their own minds from what I could see.
There was also no shortage of an amplification of the message in this comic, all Western media is lying about everything all the time kinda thing. In the interest of full disclosure that’s very likely an exaggeration itself, but I’d wager closer to the truth than what’s here.
I’m not denying any of that happened any more than you’re denying what went down on my home instance. I wasn’t there
broad sweeping statements and assumptions paired with judgements and wishes of harm based in nothing but their own minds from what I could see.
unless source for the latter half of that statement, thats gaslighting, Dougall Western media is lying about everything all the time kinda thing
Do you think that a white-supremacist imperialist nation would be honest about an enemy that it is currently at war with?
Well done dropping the part where I explained that’s likely an exaggeration. The source is out in the open. You’re as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
I think they’d be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it’s only one side lying about the other?
Beyond that the best lies are rooted in truth. Honesty happens with enough frequency to make the lies credible.
Then there’s also the openness to influence I keep with people all over the world. Looking at varying points of view is so often the path to truth.
You’re as free to look on my home instance as I am to look at your modlog.
Yeah nah i’ve seen how the imperialist bigoted fuckers from your instance behaved on here so I am safe to assume that they acted as such on home turf. They fully deserved any hate they got.
I think they’d be as honest as their enemy is about them. Why would I assume that it’s only one side lying about the other?
So you deny that the combined western powers headed by america are a uniquely evil white-supremacist entity that has brought terror and misery to the people of our world?
Not all western media is lying. There are a few okay podcasts, the Intercept, the Guardian is okay sometimes. Uhh… I can’t think of any others off the top of my head right now. Pretty much all Western government organizations and individuals related to foreign policy are shit, I’m afraid. Like a couple of Irish politicians and a smattering of minority party people across the EU are the only real exception.
All media is lying to you a large part of the time. Yet it’s only Western media you seem interested in calling out on it.
On the other end most media is telling you part of the truth or telling the truth part of the time.
They called it popular politics when I was in school
Bruv Western Media is the only media I can read. I’m American. We’re ignorant as shit. If it’s not in English I can’t do anything with it.
Idk, I saw a few comments on that post that were bad but most of it from what I saw were decently calm disagreements, at least calm in comparison to being called state actors as OP did in the post
objectivity is a myth and everyone is shaped by their material background
As we say on the show over and over again the atomic unit of propaganda is not lies, it’s emphasis.
Citations Needed Ep 113: Hollywood and Anti-Muslim Racism (Part I) — Action and Adventure Schlock
This one is going to find a massive increase in use since federation
It’s hardly an exaggeration of enemy faults when the enemies self-identify as fascists or are a bunch of transphobes who can’t even handle the existence of pronoun tags. And yes, transphobes and fascists are my enemies, these people literally want to kill me or want to deny my right to exist as myself in public and live a dignified life. I won’t have that here, or anywhere we can extend our influence. As somebody else said, go to the bottom of the page and check our modlog. We’re open and transparent about our moderation policy, everybody can see which mod actions were taken and why. For context, we normally have a person like that show up every other day at most, now we have to purge bigots all the time. Maybe your standards are too low to get this, maybe you think “nonbinary people don’t exist” or “stop using pronouns” isn’t hate speech, but it is. These are reactionary talking points and idgaf if you’re fine with such people infiltrating your instance, we will keep our community safe from harm as we’ve done before when such issues came up. Being an inclusive, safer space takes active work and it includes stepping on people’s toes and kicking people out who can’t behave.
Nope, I’m with you on all that. That’s also not what the comic is highlighting. Trans people exist and deserve all the rights everyone else has. Transphobes are pieces of shit and should be dealt with accordingly.
“I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions” is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
“I think Western institutions and media are not being entirely honest about their geopolitical opinions” is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
What you see is the logical conclusion of when you step back and realize that people are always supporting this year’s war drive and claiming last year’s war drive is ancient history and all in the past.
You say that like a whole lot of us didn’t have that realization decades ago.
No experience is universal and your logical conclusion won’t be the same for everyone.
Even if it were by throwing something aggressive in the face of someone who isn’t even on the same road you’re just going to come off as an ass. You drive others deeper into their position rather than getting anywhere productive. Which you may not care about on the surface, but then I’d argue you’re just pushing a different war drive.
You drive others deeper into their position
You say that like they haven’t held that position through multiple farcical wars.
I’m not the one driving them deeper into their position. They have chosen to do so themselves. Which is why they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
🥰
they are more concerned about my civility than the millions starved and killed in the name of the rules based international order.
You say that like your know their level of concern or activity in regards to those.
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised. Are they more or less likely to go toward someone with inflammatory rhetoric? The concept of a pipeline is hardly a new one.
Believe it or not the world isn’t divisible into two camps. Why would you not encourage people to flow towards a direction that should be inviting?
You say that like your know their level of concern or activity in regards to those.
it’s self evident, given the issues they raise
Consider someone starting to consider view points beyond how they were raised.
unironically, the bullying takes work. many of the people on this website are here because they got pressured for bad takes, got shocked and confused, and stuck around to learn more. others went wow those commies are funny and ended up doing the reading. civility only protects the status quo. we live in a fucked up world and pretending it’s not by masking how fucked up it is that people defend that status quo serves absolutely no one but the powerful. any tool that breaks people away from that reflexive defensive posture towards extant power is only an immeasurable good.
is aesthetically different or semantically different? because that’s pretty much what I see. people get aggro about it sometimes but the semantic content of what they’re saying is still what’s in the image.
aesthetics can still matter. If I say I disagree with you or I say I think you’re a stupid piece of trash there are people who would consider that to be aesthetically different but they convey a different message that will be received different.
tone policing sucks ass. I will not be polite and civil with people who callously disregard human lives. civility is the false peace, a white, middle class sensibility that I refuse to adopt. civility masks the underlying tensions that mark our fucked up world, pretending everything is hunky dory. fuck that. bring the tensions into the light. it’s only then that we stand any chance of resolving them. I’m not afraid of conflict. bring it on.
is not like the phrasing I see from hexbear users out in the wild.
What’s the phrasing, show an example or two, don’t just assert back your shit up bro
Its so funny how you guys became so used to being able to live in an echo chamber of western capitalist propaganda on reddit, then moved here, then had that bubble popped by us and lemmygrad, then became INCREDIBLY DESPERATE to get away from opinions you previously were sheltered from. Its just a funny reaction to witness.
Probably not the most extreme example but it was relatively easy to find
uh, am I supposed to see an issue with that statement?
Dougee we’ve gotten transphobes, pedos, racists and incels coming into our instance, if that’s the worst you got from us, consider yourself lucky
So because some people are so much worse it’s ok to be crappy? That doesn’t really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
Those “crappy” people prove the point the op you quoted was making, people in other instances ARE hyper sensitive to critiques of western capitalism, that’s just an easily observable fact, and it’s not rude or out of order to point it out
People in this instance including me are more than willing to engage in good faith with those curious about our politics, but there will be no toleration of bigotry or blind faith in a vicious ideology that is cooking the earth
If we’re defedrated because of those principles, so be it
So because some people are so much worse it’s ok to be crappy
Yeah. People reciprocate affection and vitriol, and being civil towards bigots is not a virtue. It’s just a point of exploitation for bad faith posters to exacerbate divisions and legitimize their bigotries.
Also, it’s the internet. Log off. I set my feed to local to avoid the other lemmy instances. Do that on midwest.social please.
That doesn’t really jive with me. We should all always be trying to be better than we have been before.
The vulgarity and dismissiveness come forth in Hexbear after an established pattern from a user, native or visiting, of bad faith arguments, bigotry, and apologia for anticommunist institutions, policies, and states. People who come from other instances, that act in the aforementioned manner, aren’t starting from the position of blind and unwilful ignorance curious of the world, political theory, or political economy and willing to know, discuss, and consider alternative perspectives.
Those bad faith posters, when discussing politics, work backwards from their conclusions. They engineer reasons for their prejudices and are unable and unwilling to overcome cognitive dissonance, reject all counterarguments as propaganda and just refer people as bots/paid shills/stooges or other dehumanizing flags to label dissidents.
If you’re not a concern troll, agree to disagree, and go away. Ask your instance to defederate if its unbearable for you.
It must be so cool not needing to ever actually examine a situation before knowing immediately what’s going on and what the motivations of people are. Just super easy and gratifying, huh?
I wouldn’t know
So do not speak
Is that take really, “if you don’t know everything don’t say anything”?
“No investigation, no right to speak” is an extremely easy bar to clear and a very easy thing to learn when you’re entering any space you’re not familiar with or held by a cultural or other group you are not a member of.
Don’t talk over people if you don’t know what you’re talking about. You obviously don’t have to know everything. If you don’t know you listen before you talk.
