There’s been a thought rattling around in my head for a long time and I haven’t had a good way to articulate it until now, so I’m planning to ramble for a bit.
Everything going on in the world right now, in Palestine, in Ukraine and Africa is a good reminder that the mass killing of humans isn’t some archaic practice that went out of style a thousand years ago. There are real consequences for dehumanization and calling for one group or another to be wiped out. It starts small, as many things do, as just a little grain in your head that some people are just lesser or worse and thus you’d be okay if they weren’t around you. I find that a lot of this rhetoric comes from pop culure, you see it in books, movies, anime, and video games. Especially when it comes to the fantasy genre. For anime, you have stuff like Goblin Slayer or Frieren where Goblins/Demons are little more than animals and need to be genocided for the betterment of society. Books, you have Orcs in Tolkien (Something I appreciate about ASOIAF is that Grrm doesn’t do this and always treats the idea of a full on massacre like it’s horrible). But video games is where it goes all out.
–Nerd Speak Below This Line–
I’ve been playing a lot of Elder Scrolls lately, which means I’ve become reaquinted with the lore, and one thing aout TES that’s always been a little concerning to me is how many of the backstories end in genocide and displacement. The Nords, the strapping 6-7 feet tall beautiful white people came down from the north and killed all the snow elves nearly to the last, the Orc homeland of Orsinium has been sacked and destroyed multiple times scattering them across the land, the Redguards showed up and killed pretty much everyone they could find for miles before being happy to stop in the desert, and the Empire has essentially been engaged in an extermination war with the Elves (who aren’t saints either) for thousands of years. Two events that I think are really disturbing are Pelinal Whitestrake and Tiber Septim’s conquest of the Summerset Isles. Now I’ll be brief: Pelinal is this uber badass Terminator from the future who had a bad habit of murdering elves so hard that he came home from war covered in blood. Which wouldn’t be too bad if they didn’t specify that he often wiped out civillian populations and even other races that aren’t even involved just because they look like them. Tiber Septim was mad that the High Elves were able to fight off his Imperialist bullshit multiple times and ultimately got a superweapon to go kill them all horribly until they submitted. Both these characters are beloved and their victims get the old “They deserved it” routine. And yes, the backstory does “justify” the purges because the Elves are almost always cartoonishly evil, but still. TES tries to be morally gray but that’s kind of a lie because when all we ever see is what was written by the winners, it starts to look like that’s what we’re supposed to takeaway.
–Nerd Speak Ends–
When you wake up in the morning and see a news program about a school or hospital being bombed, seeing someone say “They deserved it” even in regards to a fictional species hurts in a deep way. People are programmed to think this shit is a joke from a young age. And some react violently when you try and pull them out of that mentality. So yes, I don’t like genocide. Even if it’s happening to to a nonsense race of animal people.
Heh, when I read ‘fictional genocides’ in your title I though you were gonna talk about Xinjiang
Its almost as if entertainment creates the socio-cultural tropes to uphold exploration and capitalism. Most people solely lay the blame on STEM for building the weapons that kill, but forget that the social sciences create the ideas that kill.
One hands washes the other under white supremacy.
It’s not weird at all. In fact, I’d argue it is very healthy.
Stories are our way of transferring human experience from one to another. Our brains intentionally blur fiction and reality to facilitate this transfer regularly. While not a positive example, you can see it in action when fictional representations of, say, trans people are only informed by the media consumed due to the lack of other experiences to draw on. Once an experience/story is no longer relevant or helpful, we forget it. When you read a forgettable story, that’s exactly what happened.
To categorize them in the way of the Ancient Greeks, Tragedies are cautionary tales, and Dramas are explorative/navigational—meaning they primarily help us navigate the comprehensive options of situations.
Looking at the stories themselves, we can see their structure parallels that of proper arguments.
One-act stories are a thesis—they answer a single question Three-act stories are a thesis, countered by an antithesis, and then the synthesis/conclusion. Five-act stories are more based on Marxist thought—a thesis that examines the contrast, contradiction, and possibly the negation of the negative before forming its synthesis.
Long story short, what is a story beat but elaborate dressing for points A, B, and C, leading us to the next logical point and its reasoning? It’s an illusion and allegory of crashing emotions, symbols, and situations for our subconscious to process the same way it does all our experiences. Memory itself is a story we are retelling ourselves.
And that’s underlying all stories that at least have some structure holding them up. Of course, it’s going to affect you. And it should.
I’ve taken a morbid interest in watching the drama of the Kaldorei/Night Elves story unfold and the drama erupting from it. For some in the Imperial core, it’s the first thought they’ve ever given thought to the complications and effects of colonization and genocide on a people. Is it anywhere near enough? Oh, hell no. But the capitalists’ need to sell [edgy] stories at least is breaking the veneer of silence civility of not talking about hard issues. And they’ll keep having to push that line to make money. And as they do, more voices that generally get glossed over will slip through in the trend-chasing. And now and again, we might get a comrade’s allegorical voice (see some of the classics like A CHRISTMAS STORY). Contradictions exist in storytelling, too, and it plays out the same way as it does in other areas. It will affect you like everyone else because you are digesting it like everyone else. We communists, arguably more so because we can see most of it as the junk food it is—and trying to enjoy the odd bit of nutrients that slip through capitalism/liberalism’s processing. But these imagined yet shared common experiences are also what will provide us with the common ground needed to reach others here and there.
I don’t necessarily mind it existing in fiction, anymore than any other hard reality can exist in fiction, but it depends on how it is handled. If the denizens of the world accurately recognize it as a horrible thing, it’s very different to me than matter-of-factedly “we murdered all the native inhabitants of this realm and now it is ours!” takes.
I hate it when say…a race was oppressed by another race, and the player character single handedly settles generations of animosity between the two. Or when the oppressed people take back their land and are somehow portrayed as bad for not wanting to work with their colonizers.
Or when the oppressed people take back their land and are somehow portrayed as bad for not wanting to work with their colonizers.
I feel like this could actually be made to work in this exact method no no no wait hear me out. Treat it as satire and have America (for example) be colonised, and one of the colonizers is the main character. They have to struggle against the American population for their ‘right to exist’ and many of Israel’s justifications are used; the villains? Americans who are more or less actually justified in trying to protect themselves and their homes but they’re portrayed as villains. It’s so ludicrous that (hopefully) the audience can put themselves in the shoes of the ‘villains’ and extrapolate from there. The portrayal of Americans should also be as mean-spirited as portrayals of non-white foreigners often is to send the point across and hopefully aggravate people into acquiring empathy.
I’ve thought of something like this before, but I feel the potential to backfire is huge
How do you feel when it’s treated in a more sensible way by the narrative? For example, in Fire Emblem Path of Radiance
spoilers for fire emblem path of radiance
Before the beginning of the story, a whole tribe of pacifist bird people is slaughtered due to racist scapegoating, and the rest of the narrative treats this event as the horrible atrocity that it is.
It is not perfect, but it at least never portray people attacked by racist armies as “deserving it” in any way.
ignore for a second that the bird people are pale and blonde.Also if you read the Silmarileon critically you’ll notice that elves are basically settlers in whole constructions made by and for dwarves, who had been driven out. Several of their halls are passingly mentioned to have been built by dwarves, and there are even stories where jealous dwarves are portrayed as “greedy” for wanting the fruits of their labour for themselves.
Also dwarves are the original mortal people of Arda, but almost got genocided by Eru demand. Who was really sadistic fucker, considering what he did and what he didn’t do to the other people (and that include even the Ainur). Yet another paradox of evil.
Yeah, Tolkien’s portrayal of God is very vengeful for some reason.
Not really surprising considering his main sources were Hebrew, Norse and Finnish myths.
Also Catholicism, especially when it comes to Eru.
Eru is way more Hebrew myths since he don’t really resemble Jesus but very much the old testament God. Like the episode when Aule created the dwarves and Eru order him to kill them but then stop Aule when he almost it, is literally the tale about Isaac and Abraham. There’s also the Eldar exodus to Valinor, Earendil being messiah (but not Jesus) and bringing (partial) apocalypse, etc. etc.
Fictional genocides make me just as angry and uncomfortable as real genocides and I do not think that’s weird
This is good.Yeah it bothers me. /r/Stellaris likes to make xenocide jokes and it makes me uncomfortable because I feel it hides a desire in the real. Threads like this: https://www.reddit.com/r/Stellaris/comments/18fvk6p/do_you_think_the_north_sentinelese_people_and/ reveal that people aren’t able to joke about genocide given their views on real world people.
The only reason I still take it as just a joke is because Paradox themselves released stats showing that most people actually play xenophiles.
In my experience a lot of the “haha genocide” types just don’t play the game super often, which makes sense since genocidal empires are by far the least interesting playstyle.
Im critiquing the subreddit more so then the game. The game mechanics themselves make égal/phile the most powerful playstyle as its much easier to befriend the galaxy then conquer it.
Guess I’m just trash at the game since everyone seems to hate me as soon as they know I exist.
You typically need to win 1-2 wars at the start, at that point you either link up with friends or befriend your former enemies.
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All my Stellaris colonies have basically been progressive space communism. Or robots/hive minds. I can’t bring myself to RP fascist xenophobes even in fiction.
Rimworld communities have similar “haha, warcrimes are fun, right?” issues. Yet I don’t actually know anyone who plays rimworld that way regularly. Maybe people try it out once just because you can, but I don’t know many that consistently do terrible things to their colonies. I’ve always built my RW colonies to be nice places to live, and try to maximize everyone’s positive moods.
Treating your colonists terribly makes them act out and difficult to manage (like real life).
Most of the comments seem to show support for leaving them alone, at least.
Admittedly, all the genocides and the hyper-racialized nature of both TES and its fanbase are exactly why I can’t get into it anymore. It feels too real-world adjacent for the sheer amounts of settler horseshit packed into it. Literally every time I think about installing Skyrim, all I can think of is “wait, so the only main-faction choices I have are the ethnostatist crackers or the imperial menace?” And the idea gets thrown out so I can go and start another BG3 or FNV run or smth.
wait, so the only main-faction choices I have are the ethnostatist crackers or the imperial menace?”
I will be honest: I always choose the Imperial side, if only to free the Argonian dock workers from what is borderline slavery from Ulfric’s rule.
Also, the An-Xileel did nothing wrong.Oh yeah, the Empire is good and thus the horrible things that were done to create it were “good”. The baseline settler belief.
I feel the same. They say fiction reflects reality- and I’d argue that the various series of genocides in TES (and their “justifications”), or- as someone mentioned, the settler-colonial nature of the elves in the Simarillion/LoTR, is from the perspective of white, western- particularly Anglophone if not just outright Anglo-Saxon- writers, almost glorifying or finding ways to justify the actions of their ancestors- whether it was the genocides of the indigenous peoples of much of North America and Australia (among many other, far smaller regions), or it was the (granted, far less genocidal and more assimilationist) actions of their ancient Germanic ancestors against the indigenous Celts. I’m saying this as someone who generally enjoys both universes…
Another fictional genocide that I really dislike, is that of the Uchiha in Naruto- their systemic discrimination is waved away, the involvement of the village in the massacre of their population, when discovered, is knowingly and comfortably swept under the rug by the protagonists, and the last Uchiha (Sasuke) is pretty much vilified for his entirely understandable and even agreeable actions of, after learning the truth, seeking the destruction of the hidden villages’ nigh fascistic political systems. Once again I’d argue that the mentality presented in Naruto reflects the mentality of the society, and particularly the author who wrote it- as someone who enjoys (with mixed feelings) the series, I would posit that it probably says a lot about the unwavering nature of Japanese ultranationalism, the sometimes violent conformity it espouses, and it definitely is greatly influenced by Japan’s own mainstream mentality in regards to minimizing or dismissing the crimes of its past.
In both cases, those portrayed as “protagonists” and “heroes” by and large, are the perpetrators- and the writers are descendants of perpetrators, themselves. These fictions expose biases that can’t help but expose themselves when given a fantasy outlet with few repercussions- celebrating blatant genocide and war crimes in real life can have repercussions, and for the somewhat more decent folk, they’re also capable of realizing how fucked up it all is when looking at the undeniable results of their beliefs. Fiction allows them to justify it all, to write “their team” out to be the heroes no matter how it all goes, and it gives them a lot of societal leeway for presenting even the most horrible things in a positive light.
seeing someone say “They deserved it” even in regards to a fictional species hurts in a deep way.
That’s how it should be, tbh. I’d argue that someone who loses that- or even glorifies it- also becomes more likely to lose it in regards to reality as well. Fiction also has its impacts in the real world- and that’s not to say all fiction or even most should be banned, or that those who glorify even fictional genocides are necessarily genocidal themselves- but there’s certainly some degree of damage being done by all these works, if not to all those who consume them, to at least some small portion- whether the damage be the glorification or apologia of genocide and settler-colonialism, the vilification of “darker,” “evil,” “less human,” or “less western-adjacent” races, etc…
I’d even go so far as to say that the portrayals of genocides, settler-colonialism, war crimes, and other atrocities like slavery in most western and Japanese media comes with a underlying political bent deeply rooted in reality- one sometimes intentional, other times the result of being deeply propagandized, but often simply the result of the natural desire to want to paint those they identify most with- western-adjacent or Japanese-adjacent civilization and characters- in a good light, to see themselves as the heroes rather than the products of the worst, vilest genocidal empires in history.
(Edit) Also, hell if I know the answer to such works that have such references- intended or otherwise- and implications in reality, and possibly on those who consume them. Personally I don’t like arbitrary censorship, think in excess it winds up being dangerously counterproductive, and have a distaste for censorship even as a concept though I realize its absolute necessity (particularly for any societies seeking to defend themselves against the destabilizing, chaotic, and often even malevolent nature of western media- talking more about propaganda, proselytizing, etc) yet I wouldn’t blame any country for banning or restricting works such as Naruto- or worse yet, Attack on Titan, for their apologia-adjacent (if not just straight up apologia, debatable) content, even if I might not enjoy any such hindrance.
Obliging a even a fairly minor rewrite in the case of something like Naruto could shift the characterization immensely. No need to just delete it.
Goblin Slayer is 1000% Day of the Rope for weebs.
Frieren is interesting. I can’t tell if it’s progressive or the most fascist animation ever put to screen. It is worth noting that while GS goblins are basically rape-focused chimpanzees, the Demons in Frieren are much closer to an antisemitic stereotype, it literally being said that they only learn human language so that they can use it to lie, etc., with the merciful and humane people who say “surely we shouldn’t kill demon toddlers, right?” being proven wrong and renouncing their view after their tolerance enables the Demons to infiltrate society and do more harm. Waiting to see if there’s any kind of twist or if it’s just that fash.
It was a shame to see that because the show looked so smart and thoughtful prior to that. Then it turned into Dragon Ball Z for a few episodes.
Edit: Now that I think about it, yeah. Frieren is much more disturbing about it because it teeters on race science. This race of people who are clearly sapient only pretend to have human emotion so they can kill people and then hide behind compassion by repeating meaningless phrases. Oh God, that’s worse than just making them all 10 feet tall red minotaurs.
Part of me is holding out for there being a second shoe that drops, but there are many anime that look promising (at least to some) and then totally ahit the bed.
I like to believe that the story goblin slayer is a story of an adventurer hyper-fixated on goblins and these are his exaggerated stories where he hallucinated goblins when he’s killing other types of creatures. This also tracks with the fact that nobody has a real name in the show and it’s because Goblin Slayer doesn’t want to remember anyone’s names so he doesn’t acknowledge their names existing. It also tracks as to why so many women seem interested in him because he’s invested in his self aggrandizing delusion. I wouldn’t be surprised if his party members tell him that he’s not actually killing that many goblins, but he won’t acknowledge that to cling to his delusions.
I regret to inform you that this is headcanon cope of the highest order
This abridged version is just better
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLzFmxV-tE7kXX5vF_WcVrzrq6FMDZcClF
Makes me think of Attack on Titan.
spoiler
Eren’s reasoning to basically kill off all of humanity is so dumb, and lowkey makes suspension of disbelief really hard to accept for the sake of the plot.
spoiler
AoT’s plot strikes me as the most convoluted, unrealistic way of nigh forcing Eren to commit genocide and yet remain halfway “sympathetic” and “justified,” TBH. It’s such a mess that personally I can’t even blame him all that much, however horrible his actions were- if it’s genuinely “do or die,” I certainly would like to think I would only ever choose the former- but reality doesn’t work the way it does in the fantasy universe with giant-shifting humanoids, gas-propelled rappelling parkour swordsmen, and the “inherited will” of some ancient textbook Stockholm syndrome personification with the means of manipulating an entire nation’s memories.
Reality doesn’t function as a old west-style standoff between inherently oppositional nations nigh destined to wipe one another off the face of the map.
Though if it were, fuck the west and the Japanese,is my take on it- they should be aware that what goes around can also come around, if they push hard enough.But there’s always another option- hell, there’s always a plethora of thousands of other options that don’t involve genocide, and can even be described as mutually beneficial arrangements in one way or another, even if you have to pummel the other side into the negotiating table and repeatedly beat them into behaving halfway decently, as is probably the case with the white supremacist brotherhood of the west.
Mixed feelings about AoT myself, TBH. I don’t really interact with the main work, but I like the universe and characters. But there’s no way the author isn’t some sniveling fascist-adjacent Japanese apologetic who probably has a serious victim complex.
The thing that makes Attack on Titan weird is that at the last minute before the final arc, it’s revealed that the Marleyeans were basically completely right that the Eldian Empire was a conqueroring, genocidal hellhole that employed armies of man eating monsters to get what they want. But even with that revelation no one stops and considers anything, they just continue with the “It’s us or them” shit. Obviously the Marleyeans were a clear standin for Fascist Italy so the conflict comes down to Nazis vs Nazis.
one thing aout TES that’s always been a little concerning to me is how many of the backstories end in genocide and displacement.
Both these characters are beloved and their victims get the old “They deserved it” routine.
y’ever wonder whatever happened to the Chinese and their space program in the Starfield universe?
I would love to reply with a witty comment to this by making a reference fitting the game’s lore. I can’t however, because unfortunately no one cares about Starfield, and that includes me as well.
Never ever asks TES nerd about Pelinal. Instant regret.
Replace “Elf” with literally any other word and the issue becomes obvious.
For some reason the elf hate in general fantasy became the… substitute for something not said openly. Critique is one thing, but while you mention elves and suddenly those dudes starts ranting about killing them.
Warhammer fans that are too into the imperium and space marines give me the yikes.
An underrated (to me) issue is how over time they’ve written in more and more justifications for the horrors of the Imperium. They’ve made it “yeah this is dark but you kind of see why they do it, right?” instead of the classic “this is the cruelest and most tyrannical system imaginable.”
In reality, fascism is horrific and unjustifiable, so fascists have to invent terrible consequences (immigrants! you know how many bajillions commies will kill if we don’t murder them now! the Gay Agenda!) that make a fascist regime, however terrible, look “justified” in comparison. 40k has done the same thing, except in-universe those terrible consequences are actually real.
The “sure, fascism is bad, but it’s what we have to do to combat the enemy,” ideology is an insidious one. It’s more relevant than “we are 100% good and justified to enact operation child blender” fascism that is the commonly imagined version.
I’m not a big TES lore guy, but its always had pretty awful politics as far as I could tell. I don’t even understand any of the references you made to the lore massacres but I’m not surprised.
Anyway, yeah, you’re supposed to feel bad. I don’t think the writers do, but you should.
