Libs: “THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO QUESTION THAT THERE’S GENOCIDE IN XINJIANG, AND IF YOU DARE TO BRING UP THE LACK OF EVIDENCE OF ANY SORT OF ABUSE FOR THE PAST 3 YEARS YOU’LL GET BANNED!!!”
Also libs: “Didn’t you know that 15k of the 40k humans murdered in Gaza were actually terrorists? Also, lots of civilians die in wars like the one happening in Gaza, it’s sad but inevitable”
Fuuuuuuuuuck this shit.
Let’s do an experiment. Russia had no business attacking Ukraine
Credit to @[email protected]
Genuine question, just because there are some nazis in Ukraine, that justifies a military invasion? Should all countries with neo-nazis in them be invaded by others? Should Russia invade itself, as there are neo-nazis also within Russia? Do you think invasion, killing others, is a valid form of affecting change?
If you say yes to any of these, why are some invasions good (Russia->Ukraine) but other invasions are bad (US->wherever)?
What do you say about the 2013 Ukrainian revolution (Euromaidan), which goal was to topple a Russian-controlled corrupt government and give democratic power to the people? Why do you think the toppling of a Russian-controlled corrupt government wouldn’t be a much more likely reason for the invasion of Ukraine? Doesn’t it make much more sense that if Russia loses autocratic control over Ukraine through a people’s revolution, and can’t pay a corrupt government anymore to do what they want, they would try to regain that control through violence/annexation?
Nazi is part of the problem.
Why do you think the government formed from Euromaidan is legitimate when the people living there, Eastern Ukraine don’t think so? In your word, they just traded a Russian-controlled corrupt government to a US-controlled corrupt government.
I understand that there are people in Ukraine who are more aligned with Russia than EU. However, in democracies, which is a terrible form of government but still the best one we have, the majority wins. In 2013, the parliament of Ukraine overwhelmingly supported the European-Ukrainian association agreement, which is the democratically elected part of the government, and then the Yanukovich government suddenly decided, no, they’re not going to honor this decision. That is clear corruption in Russian direction. I can’t deny there might still be corruption in the government formed after Euromaidan, but it is very clear that in total, the majority of Ukraine supported this.
It’s kind of telling to me how you ignored the part about an invasion being a fine way to solve this problem. Shouldn’t the people within a country solve their internal problems themselves? There was no military invasion by EU/US/NATO into Ukraine to bring it under their control. NATO militarization or membership looked very unlikely… Until the 2014 invasion of Crimea and now the 2022 invasion of the whole of Ukraine.
There is a whole different level between trying to gain influence through trade agreements compared to trying to gain influence by military invasion. Sure, I completely concede that Western governments are trying to get influence over Ukraine. But why do these influence battles have to escalate into a war, don’t you agree that no matter who influences/controls a country, normal people’s lives are only going to get worse with a war than with peace? The invasions of the US to “help” all kinds of people (obviously not the real motivation) are rightfully condemned, why is this invasion any different? The thought of course is, after the war things should be better, but when had this ever been the case? During WW2, yes, but the problems in Ukraine were nowhere close to ethnic cleansing like was seen in the Nazi regime, in fact it is heavily disputed that there were any coordinated aggression against ethnic Russians at all. Only 3 months passed between Euromaidan and the Russian invasion of Crimea. There wasn’t even enough time to properly form a government, nevermind starting a controlled persecution of ethnic Russians (if that even was a plan/possibility, which is highly disputed).
Another thing, why didn’t Russia stop with Donbas if it was only about “saving the Russians” in eastern Ukraine? Why did they go for Kiev immediately in 2022? It is quite clear that this current war was never (at least only) about saving “prosecuted Russians”.
They went for the head to make a quick peace negotiation. Not joining NATO is a big one in the deal and stop Azov from shelling Donbas/Donetsk. Peace deal fell apart thanks to Boris Johnson.
Fears of peace talks with Putin rise amid US squabbling
What do you believe to be the driving factor(s) that led to the current Russo-Ukranian conflict?
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HAHAHAHA.
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My ‘hot’ take is that your unsubstantiated assertion is contradicted by Putin’s history. He was on the anti-communist side in the 90s, he has been against any sort of return to a planned economy throughout his terms, he has been in favour of stuff like monetisation of welfare, etc.
It’s extremely silly to assert that he wants to ‘bring back his glorious USSR’ when his actions directly contradict that.
If you want to trust a career liar, then that’s on you
Haha. So, you expect him to suddenly do a 180 and completely change his policies and selection of allies?
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how is he lying about his actions? you are genuinely very stupid
You’re believing the US media about him, and they’re the biggest career liars on earth. Saddam Hussein’s People Shredder, anyone?
You people are so lobotomized by Good Guy Bad Guy Marvel slop, it’s embarassing
if the Bad Man is a Liar I can make up whatever I want
jarringly incoherent NPC reply
He is a liar. He lied about being a communist so he could infiltrate the KGB and use his position for his own personal gain.
Notice how all the analysis thenother person did was about the actions he’s taken and not the things he’s said because everybody here not only knows he’s a liar but knows that actions speak louder than words.
You’re the one confusing words and actions, right from the get go when you said “let’s do an expirement” and then made a completely uncontroversial statement.
Liberals are literally incapable of material analysis, they literally just make decisions based on what propoganda was presented to them most recently.
The liberal anti-communist wants to restore worker power and internationalism? The multi-billionaire that only pays lip service to communist aesthetics to maintain support among the older nostalgic generations wants to abdicate power to a system of democratic centralism?
They’re so cooked, they conjure new realities that came to them in a dream and believe that dream to itself be reality.
I bet you’re great at math
Try calculating how many people the soviets liberated.
I get paid to do it, so at least some people believe so.
Why didn’t you answer my other questions, you’re replying to my replies for other people, but not the ones directed at you?
It really doesn’t cause a little itch in the back of your head to ignore the dozens of good faith replies you keep getting to make these shitlib reddit comments instead.
Do you legitimately consider yourself to be an honest and serious person?
Putin wanted to be a western lapdog so bad he even asked to join NATO and helped the Americans wage the War on Terror. The West didn’t accept that, because they wanted every non-western country to be absolutely subservient and exploitable.
You are a deeply unserious person
Ok then what’s your take?
I more or less agree with what others here have been telling you.
K. Thanks
You are trolling right? Dear god tell me you are a troll. Putin hates Communism, he blamed the war on the USSR giving autonomy to Ukraine in the first place. If you want to say he is a Tsarist that would be dumb but closer to the truth. This is just pure brainrot. Motherfucker was part of what was called the Yeltsin Family, the clique of capitalists selling out the USSR to the west. Why would he destroy the USSR only to weakly try to bring back small portions of its territory decades later?
You have no coherence, you have only knee-jerk responses based on regurgitated ideology
Sorry to spam you with replies but, while it is true that he’s an irredentist, the idea that he has loyalty to the actual USSR when he is one of the people who helped kill it is completely ridiculous. He is not a communist and makes no secret of that fact.
Do you have any evidence of Putin wishing to reinstate the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? Why is Putin moving in a Capitalist direction, rather than Socialist? Why is the conflict specifically centered around regions of Ukraine, not the entirety, and why Ukraine specifically?
Do you believe history to be decided by Great Men, or by Material Conditions?
this couldn’t be more embarrassing to witness if you had just publicly shit yourself.
hilarious layers here because Butcher Biden shit himself publicly and said Putin wants to restore the USSR!
You’re a child
Most likely. I think you can do better insults than that though
He and his party are the liberals who carried out a coup and then formally dissolved the USSR against the wishes of the public, then spent the next twenty years eagerly collaborating with the US, sucking up to the US, and being propped up by the US. Even now he’s just a sad old liberal trailing after the American far right and implementing American style reactionary laws in the hopes that they’ll finally accept him, even with the ongoing war to keep American nukes from being parked a stone’s throw away from Moscow.
Credit where credit is due: at least you deleted this fucking insane comment.
New slop for the hogs! Get it while it’s still warm!
I don’t think you’re pig slop. You should think better of yourself
If you’re going to go “no u” I’m going to go PPB.
Sorry, but that Pic has been used on me already. Please pick a different one
I was just about to post that.
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No I’m the pig
To actually answer your experiment: the war in Ukraine is an imperialist war between capitalist Russia and a proxy of the capitalist west (mainly US through NATO influence). Russia is on a scary and dangerous trend towards fascism, and I have loved ones directly suffering the consequences of this.
Edit: not just Russia, to be fair. France, Germany, the US (just to name a few western countries) are clearly on a similar and equally worrying trend. And nobody seems to care when other eastern European countries such as Poland literally ban communist parties (as a good fascist would do), and have people in congress using fire extinguishers against jewish symbols during Hannukah.
Anyone who had a look at Lenin’s “Imperialism: highest stage of capitalism” and took it seriously, knew that there would be war in Europe as soon as they realized that the means of production of the former USSR were auctioned in a corrupt fashion, and their structure of ownership went not to western hands, but to national interests that collide with those of the US. Since that moment, it was just a matter of time that there would be conflict.
Wow, materialist analysis of a conflict, instead of simplistic “Putin bad” or “NATO bad”? (both of these statements being true). Now, what do you answer?
You’re going at it wrong
You need to add some Marvel references and throw in some hamburger analogies so the drone-like WASPs posting this shit can understand
What I don’t understand about Russia is, if they’re capitalist then why don’t they engage in imperialism? The capitalists there have the same interests as capitalists everywhere. Why weren’t they folded into the hegemony they way capitalists of Europe were?
As we all know here, I am very stupid but I’ll give this a shot based on my current understanding.
The USSR was not Imperialist, so when it was sliced up and sold to nationalist Capitalists, there were no readily available colonies to exploit, and Western Powers had already divied up the Global South amongst themselves. With little international exploitation, the Russian Bourgeoisie is Nationalist in character, exploiting their internal proletariat. Meanwhile, Western Powers seek the industrial base of Russia, causing constant conflict.
Russia therefore aligns with BRICS after failing to join NATO and take their “share” of Imperialist super-profits. They tried, and were rejected!
I appreciate the response. I need to probably read more about the topic
Same here, hence the preface, but I did feel comfortable enough in said analysis to post my reply.
I think you could also describe Russian foreign policy in the Middle East (namely Syria) as “adventurism.” AFAIK they’re still occupying parts of Syria with no real exit strategy. While this was done at the request of Syria’s government in order to combat ISIS, Putin hasn’t let the opportunity pass him by to build oil pipelines and whatnot.
Russia has always been called “the sick old man of Europe” for a reason.
I wouldn’t say “Always”
The first popular usage of the phrase was Tsar Nicholas I calling the Ottoman Empire the sick man in the 1800’s, and it was ascribed to alot of nations by alot of nations after WWII.
Nowadays Europe is the sick man of Europe.
Putin tried really had to be taken into the fold imperialism. He assisted the west in its looting of Russia. He tried to join NATO but the crypto fascists who run NATO will never forgive the Slavic peoples for destroying the third reich. After getting teased and given the run around for decades he slowly wised up to the game. Putin realized by 2014 they wouldn’t let him be a European but until late 2023 he still didn’t understand that the west could never be trusted.
I dont think the war in ukraine is an inter imperialist war, it is an anticolonial war started by the national bourgeoisie
Losurdo (2017):
https://redsails.org/losurdo-and-opera/
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Ok, now your turn on the experiment. Is there an ongoing genocide against Palestinians in Gaza? Is there an ongoing genocide against Uyghur in Xinjiang?
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The US’s “Uyghur genocide” (“cultural” or otherwise) disinformation campaign has already been debunked several times over.
Credit to @[email protected]
The World Uyghur Congress also supports ’s genocide against Palestine so there’s that also
Ok, why yes and yes? Where is the evidence that there’s an ongoing genocide in China? Please, as I said in the original post in .world, provide any evidence from 2022 onwards.
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First link is paywalled, seems to be an interview talking explicitly about what I’m saying: the concerns for genocide have gone down in the last years, likely due to the lack of evidence of the continuation of the claims that Adrian Zenz made some half decade ago. The interviewee seems to be a member of a US government institution (idk I’m not USian), and since the article is paywalled, i can’t see any study or any new information on what’s going on in Xinjiang.
Second link is simply a link to a debate? Like, it claims without providing any sources or citing any study, that millions of Uyghur are experiencing atrocities. How’s that evidence?
Third link quite clearly says “2021”, both on the URL and on the article as you open it.
Can you please, bring any new, sourced information, from 2022 onwards, of the current situation of the “Uyghur genocide” in Xinjiang?
https://www.genocidewatch.com/single-post/chinese-genocide-of-uyghurs-in-xinjiang-continues
https://thediplomat.com/2024/04/erasing-memories-concealing-evidence-chinas-efforts-to-obscure-the-uyghur-genocide/
https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/china/
https://www.vox.com/future-perfect/2022/9/14/23351153/china-uyghur-muslim-genocide-xinjiang-united-nations
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/feb/15/china-is-committing-a-genocide-why-was-our-foreign-office-planning-to-meet-one-of-the-perpetrators
None of these should have a paywall except The Guardian which I was able to just “X” out of
The claims of genocide against Uyghurs originated from and have been supported by since and rejected by most rest of the world.
also committed a genocide in Namibia and killed up to as many as 150,000 people over a century ago. The mechanisms and media was also used as a “blueprint” for the Holocaust/Final Solution.
Fast forward to the present, starts wailing at Namibia for establishing closer ties with China and the then-president Habe Geingob very openly accusing of , stating that China never belittles or infantilises them. Of course, Namibia (and South Africa) obviously rejects the claims of genocide against Uyghurs.
starts yet another extermination campaign against Palestine, with very clear goals of a Final Solution. in response, starts sending hundreds of millions of Euros in aid to . Worth noting that also supports the Uyghur genocide claims with the words “Free Uyghurs” written on the bombs being launched at apartment towers, hospitals, mosques and UN schools.
So South Africa finally takes the violent Nazi brat to court and immediately goes into , screaming at South Africa while Namibia tells the Olaf SSchwanz to sit down.
Meanwhile, China is not starving or bombing the Uyghurs, nor have they been forced into an extermination camp the size of municipal Johannesburg. Life expectancy, literacy rates, incomes, education have all increased. Homes now all have electricity, hot water and working toilets, there’s widespread access to primary and higher education, medical treatment and is now united with the rest of China by high-speed rail. Infant mortality and crime has dropped significantly. There has not been a terror attack in nearly a decade and the desperation fueled by poverty is no longer present. Xinjiang is also now a highly important hub for mechanised agriculture and industry. The Belt and Road runs through it and in recent times, large quantities of lithium, oil and other valuable minerals have been found in the province. Uyghur culture is also frequently promoted on Chinese media and tourism both domestic and foreign, has grown. Uyghurs also have Chinese citizenship. China has also finally supported South Africa’s case in the ICJ.
Hope that clears it up for you. If not, then
Death to America
Did they not have Chinese citizenship before? That’s the only part of your comment I found surprising.
I think they just mean in contrast to Israel’s policies on Palestinians in the lands it settles.
They always had Chinese citizenship.
Added that because a common redditor talking point is throwing the “settler-colonization” accusation in the mix
Idk why you libs come here an act so smugly superior when you have nothing of substance to retort are arguments with, you just declare their apparent superiority of your opinions and scold us for not realizing their self-evident correctness.
Seriously they’re fucking children.
“Oh yea, well what’s your take?”
several paragraphs of analysis with historical context and a focus on concrete actions taken by both sides without relying on political statements
“uhhhhhh nuh uh”
They’re just as fucking stupid as chuds except that chuds know they’re being stupid on purpose to annoy you, libs are dumber than dogshit while also being a smug asshole and infantilizing you.
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Yeah “nothing then” is giving to the detailed reply you received
“Respect me while I act like a smug dipshit”
Lol, no. You started acting like a child, and strangers online who know better than you are under no obligation to wipe your stupid ass for you. Read a single book or stop your whining, loser.
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Ukraine had no business attacking children in Donbas.
LMFAO Liberal Einstein here,doing “experiments”
Also,“the” Ukraine? Madonn!
Changed it for you. And I knew someone was going to go for the bait. Remember, this is an international forum and we need to conduct ourselves appropriately.
Also Einstein was a genius, so it’s not much of an insult to get compared to him. Kind of flattered honestly
I’m shocked that no one has taken this low-hanging fruit yet: https://monthlyreview.org/2009/05/01/why-socialism/
I was thinking of mentioning that,but it will probably fly over their head like a Hezbollah rocket over an Israeli settlement
So just so we’re on the same page, what was your point in providing this article?
I just thought an Einstein fan might be interested in reading his thoughts on communism, and Hexbear would be the place where people point it out as a board of communists who have a shortlist of articles that they reflexively post (Ask someone about brainwashing next). It has no bearing on the alleged uyghur genocide stuff.
in
it’s for you to not read, just ilke you won’t read https://redsails.org/the-xinjiang-atrocity-propaganda-blitz/
and then keep flapping your ignorant mouth repeating the same embarrassing lies that get broadcast on TV as if we haven’t heard them. then we bring up easily verifiable facts and information you’ve never heard in mass media, and you ignore it because you’re a spoiled western chauvinist who just wants the treats to keep flowing
He was being sarcastic you dingus
Hey be nice, it’s an international forum lol
Funny how the mind of the western barbars can’t comprehend that this place isn’t another internet space dominated by the American monoculture
I’m not the one throwing shit at everyone in the thread in order to make terrible actions by a country look better
I’m only throwing shit at you, you crybaby
Something something rubber and glue. I don’t know. This deserves low effort
You are the only one getting shit thrown at you. This isn’t a struggle session, it’s not a flame war. It’s all of us against just you. Because you’re wrong and are annoying about it This is the forum equivalent of being brought into town square so people can throw rotten food at you.
Oh sorry. Context is difficult with just text. Let me retry. “Oh no! Sarcasm! My only weakness. I’ve been defeated!”
If I had to guess I would say all social interaction is your weakness
Oho,I admit,I’m flattered you decided to take time out of your day to look through my posting history to dunk on me
Credit where credit is due
Now,with all due respect,you can fuck off with that smug attitude you westoid fuck
The gall of these smug little reddiors is astounding
Seeing as you saw fit to look through my comments,I think you might have seen that I literally live next to “the” Ukraine
I saw the Russians drone strike cities from my own house and I still think uwu smol bean Ukraine should lose this war on account of the being a puppet of the NATO reich and because they have become a Mecca for nazis of all stripes
I hate NATO,I hate Ukraine and I despise Israel
The fascist world order will collapse and you smarmy little fucks can do nothing about it, except piss yourselves on the internet and epically bait and pwn le evil commies
Yup. I’m smug and you’re a hypocrite who is ok with innocent Ukrainian civilians getting killed by an invasion force that has no business being there. Think about that. You want civilians to die for world politics
You say this like “politics” is some nebulous, worthless thing. People typically want wars that are disruptive of the status quo because they view it as the only way to change systems in which, e.g., a much greater number of civilians live under brutal oppression, as their grandparents did and their grandchildren will if the state machinery is not smashed. You’re like the people who bemoan the Haitian Revolution because some white families died with no concern for the fact that it was a slave state and the revolution stopped, it cannot be stressed enough, the continuous, literal chattel enslavement of an entire country’s worth of people.
– Mark Twain on France’s “Reign of Terror”
The implication that there are premature deaths that are not in some way political is also silly.
Who’s being enslaved in Ukraine? It’s not comparable
Notice I also brought up France, where people were not chattel slaves but living in oppression and fought a revolution that conservatives still have not forgiven them for.
So the question is “What humanitarian issues are you saying would actually get better by Russia invading?” And my answer is that the Euromaidan coup government was culturally repressing the better part of eastern Ukraine, which was the material basis for their revolting against the Ukrainian government, which resulted in an eight year war of the slaughtering of civilians and journalists in the east with indiscriminate bombing and shooting. Russia’s victory over Ukraine is the best chance they have to live without cultural repression or slaughter.
Quick question,do you support Hamas?
Yes.
Nope. I don’t understand why people think that one side needs to be right
It’s less about being “right” and more about which side is conducting a settler colonial genocide
Israel. However hamas abducted 251 people and 97 are still unaccounted for. Two wrongs don’t make a right
Doctor RomCom diagnoses you with a classic case of
Haha. Really reaching now aren’t ya?
You are literally okay with things like your genocide of Palestinians, your atrocities in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Korea, etc., colonialism in general.
And now you’re just assuming. You got anything of substance to say or are we just going to keep doing this dance?
You have admitted that you do not support a resistance to a genocide, and you don’t understand why resistance to a genocide is just.
But hey, sure, let’s hear how much you don’t support the rest of the things that I listed, despite uncritically regurgitating your empire’s propaganda (even though your empire has admitted to having no evidence to support it).
Then show me the evidence saying otherwise
You literally argue like a 13 year old. Calling people Einstein sarcastically isn’t new, it goes at least as fat back as 1997 when a talking bird used it that way in star fox 64 and I understood the phrase and what it meant at age 6. By pretending what is clearly sarcasm is a genuine comparison between you and Einstein is patently absurd and you aren’t making yourself come off as at all clever, it comes off as a desperate child who knows he’s losing and has decided that being obstinate is a replacement for wit, rhetoric or a basic understanding of the topic. You’re infantile.
Actually I don’t wear glasses
Such a fucking redditor jesus christ. Why even come to Lemmy at that point? Just stay on reddit
They’re literally the emoji
I am whatever you say I am
please be a corpse
or a resident of the barbara pit
Editing oit my comment because while yeah, I laughed, suicide baiting isn’t on
You really like to throw “go back to reddit” around a lot. It’s getting borderline unoriginal
No one is saying it to be clever; they mean it in a very literal and practical way because they see you as belonging on Reddit.
Life must be hard for these guys who just can’t imagine a second reason to say something other than as a performance for updoots
👍 Thanks GarbageShoot
First time I’m saying that to a non-LW user.
You get that alot ig? I can see why.
“If you want capitalist propaganda you can go back to reddit lol”
Fair that it only happened twice, but weird that it happened twice
Yeah I can really see why you get that alot
Because I’m a smartass to people who go out of their way to try and insult me? Yeah… I’m the problem
Yeah cuz this is so goddamn original
Never said it was original. Good effort though
Little weird to criticize others for unoriginality when you lack it so much yourself
Lol. Guess I can get a little hypocritical myself sometimes. Isn’t it weird how that works?
Obomba had no business overthrowing the democratically elected Viktor Yakunovich
had no business being nazi fucks murdering their own people and working for to provoke Russia
Okay.
That’s just objectively wrong tho
They’re handling decades worth of unfinished business right now
That’s a statement not an experiment
WHAT ABOUT ISM MUCH!!!111?!?1;1!?;1!1?1!1!11?1?1?!1!1?1?1?1!1!!1!1!1?1?1??1!1!1!11!?1?1!1?1?1
oppa gangnam style
So now you like ethnic cleansing?
this post has remained up for well over 24 hours, and you have received an number of good faith responses to your statement and follow up queries - responses which demonstrate more effort and thought than your replies, to be honest.
has your hypothesis been proven?
You’re completely correct.
However, the West had no business provoking a land war in Europe.
Can you agree with that as well?
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