• kinther@lemmy.world
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    36
    arrow-down
    19
    ·
    5 months ago

    Do you know how a first past the post electoral system works? Or are you young and naive, thinking that politics isn’t about compromise?

    • hark@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      23
      arrow-down
      10
      ·
      5 months ago

      Seems like compromise is “the political party does whatever they want and you guarantee your undying loyalty to them with your vote”. You speak of youth and naivety, but only an idiot would accept such a “deal”. If our votes have power then we should wield it.

      • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        English
        arrow-up
        11
        arrow-down
        13
        ·
        edit-2
        5 months ago

        The fact that you think voting is an undying loyalty and not a simple strategic decision baffles me, and embodies the exact argument I keep seeing on here. You know how you wield the power of your vote? USE IT. Voting 3rd party is really dumb right now but in theory okay. Not voting simply means you don’t care.

        • hark@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          13
          arrow-down
          6
          ·
          5 months ago

          I don’t think voting in general is undying loyalty, I think guaranteeing your vote to a party no matter what they do is undying loyalty. That’s what they demand and expect because the other guy is worse, but if that’s the strategy then they have no need to ever actually improve things because the other guy will always be worse.

      • kinther@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        3
        arrow-down
        6
        ·
        5 months ago

        You have a choice between two candidates who can win the election. There is no third party who can win. You speak as if there is one in a first past the post electoral system. There isn’t. If you have a way forward that doesn’t further slide us into fascism and also isn’t supportive of genocide, please enlighten me.

        Sadly our only option is to not for for Trump, and the only other viable candidate is Biden. I don’t like it anymore then you do, but until we replace our electoral system with one that is more fair, it’s what we have to work with.

        • hark@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          9
          arrow-down
          3
          ·
          5 months ago

          If the threat of withholding your vote does not scare the party that is supposedly saving democracy, then they probably don’t actually care about democracy, especially when they prioritize genocide over getting those votes.

          • kinther@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            4
            ·
            5 months ago

            I’d much prefer a ranked choice voting system where we had viable third parties. At the end of the day, one of two people will win the election. If you make one issue your entire focus, you lose sight of the big picture. I’ll just say this - genocide is not a joke, it’s fucked up, and I believe Israel is committing it in Gaza.

            Putting that aside for now, do you care about anything else politically? Do you believe a woman should not be allowed to have an abortion, or do you support further tax cuts for the billionaires?

              • kinther@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                1
                ·
                5 months ago

                You never can tell at this point. Some people are just low information, single issue voters. I dont doubt there are a lot of astroturfing trolls here though, especially since it’s an election year.

                • 0xD@infosec.pub
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  2
                  arrow-down
                  1
                  ·
                  5 months ago

                  I’m not completely, but mostly sure that all of this is astroturfed. It’s crazy to me.

                  • kinther@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    ·
                    5 months ago

                    I think there are a lot of disenfranchised young people who are naive about how our voting system works, just like I was in 2016. I’ve said it elsewhere but I’m getting flashbacks because of all the “don’t vote” and “vote 3rd party” BS I’m seeing, which heavily tilted the scales in the favor of the Republicans.

        • Venia Silente@lemm.ee
          link
          fedilink
          English
          arrow-up
          1
          arrow-down
          1
          ·
          5 months ago

          Sadly our only option is to not for for Trump, and the only other viable candidate is Biden.

          And you don’t need to vote for him either.

          Just go sharpen your guillotines.

    • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      19
      arrow-down
      7
      ·
      5 months ago

      Politics is absolutely about compromise, but Democrats never really compromise with progressives. The most we get is putting weed in the hands of the pharmaceutical companies, Yippee.

      • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        2
        arrow-down
        7
        ·
        5 months ago

        Sigh. They compromise with Republicans because they don’t have all three of the house of representatives, the Senate, and the presidency. You want them to not compromise with Republicans? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.

        • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          8
          arrow-down
          4
          ·
          edit-2
          5 months ago

          So, your only solution to fixing the country is to win a super majority every single election for all time, lest the next time the Republican wins, we will be a fascist dictatorship. Well, that doesn’t seem very tenable, does it?

          Guess we’re just boned, right?

          • WldFyre@lemm.ee
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            3
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            5 months ago

            your only solution to fixing the country is to win a super majority every single election for all time

            Wow, the strategy of consistently voting for the party that most aligns with your values? What idiots!

            /s

            • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              1
              arrow-down
              4
              ·
              5 months ago

              Are you really implying that there is a conceivable reality in which Democrats win every election for the rest of time?

          • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            4
            arrow-down
            5
            ·
            5 months ago

            I’m saying if you want progress, then give Dems overwhelming and consistent victories.

            You need to twist that to ‘lest we be fascist dictatorship’. We’ll see what happens after Trump, if the Republicans continue on that path. But whether they do or don’t, we’re back to progress and if you want progress.

            • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              5
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              edit-2
              5 months ago

              I posits that Democrats are not the party of progress as long as they ignore progressives.

              Im politically homeless.

              • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                2
                arrow-down
                4
                ·
                5 months ago

                They can’t be progressive when they keep losing any of the 1) House of representatives, 2) Senate, or 3) Presidency. You want progress? Give them all 3 consistently and overwhelmingly.

                • PopOfAfrica@lemmy.world
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  5
                  arrow-down
                  3
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  5 months ago

                  So literally what I said, we have to win overwhelming super majorities and every single branch where there’s no hope for the country. Got it, untenable.

                  • BarqsHasBite@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    arrow-up
                    2
                    arrow-down
                    4
                    ·
                    edit-2
                    5 months ago

                    Well you want to keep turning this to “no hope”, down from “fascist”. Turn this around, do you want progress? That’s what it is progress.

                    Untenable? Dude, votes decide this. Voting is simple. This is simple.

                    Seems very much like you want to decide it’s “untenable” so that you can give up, excuse yourself from not voting, and (here’s the kicker) then bitch online.

      • kinther@lemmy.world
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        25
        arrow-down
        13
        ·
        5 months ago

        So you’re saying that… I should abide by principles… by allowing my country to further descend into fascism… by not voting for a politician that could prevent that…

        …right. You’re a smart mother fucker.

        • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          15
          arrow-down
          29
          ·
          5 months ago

          Don’t be mad at me because I forced you to confront your own lack of principles. I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar. If we have found ourselves at an election where our choices are between two fascists, then we are already in fascism. If there is no way to vote for “no genocide” then there is no serious reason to vote.

          • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            25
            arrow-down
            17
            ·
            5 months ago

            I’ve got a principle, personally, that won’t allow me to vote for a genocidaire. I don’t think that’s a very high fucking bar.

            Pretty clearly it’s not a very high bar, since you’re supporting an intensification of that genocide and the commencement of several others. That’s a bar too low to limbo under.

            • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              12
              arrow-down
              23
              ·
              5 months ago

              Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you. I don’t care who you are, or who might also do the same thing. I’ll hate them too. That’s what a principle is. If more people had such a principle maybe we could make real political changes instead of giving “political capital” to war criminals.

              • PugJesus@lemmy.worldOP
                link
                fedilink
                English
                arrow-up
                15
                arrow-down
                12
                ·
                edit-2
                5 months ago

                Yeah man, I’m sorry but if you’re doing a genocide, fuck you. I’ve got nothing but hate for you.

                It’s a shame you hate yourself so much. Wait, if you’re pursuing multiple genocides, as you are by furiously seeking a Trump victory, is your hate multiplied?

          • magnetosphere@fedia.io
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            11
            arrow-down
            7
            ·
            edit-2
            5 months ago

            Okay, you’ve hit on exactly what I don’t get.

            Most Federal elections aren’t about good vs. bad. They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.

            As I see it, a vote for Biden OR Trump is a vote supporting genocide. On that one issue, sadly, there’s no real choice.

            However, voting for Trump also brings with it sexism, racism and an inevitable threat to democracy - in addition to genocide. Crucially, changing the system for the better would become MUCH harder under Trump. Choosing not to vote at all (or voting for a 3rd party candidate with no real chance of winning) helps Trump. It would be giving up on yourself, and society as a whole. It would be saying that things are too broken to be fixed, ever, so it’s okay to let future generations suffer.

            I don’t see the moral benefit in failing to choose the lesser of two evils.

            • hark@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              13
              arrow-down
              7
              ·
              5 months ago

              When full support for genocide is “the lesser of two evils” then you’ve already lost. It’s straight up evil.

            • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
              link
              fedilink
              arrow-up
              14
              arrow-down
              9
              ·
              5 months ago

              A system that only allows you to choose between two enthusiastic war criminals should be given up on. There is no saving or reforming such a system. An election boycott and riots in the street are a preferable choice as far as I’m concerned.

                • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  7
                  arrow-down
                  5
                  ·
                  5 months ago

                  I’m not doing shit about electoral reform. I would like to understand exactly the kind of optimism it takes to believe that meaningful electoral reform is a real possibility. Give me your realistic roadmap to a materially better system, accomplished through reforming the current one. I don’t expect a detailed plan, but what are the broad strokes?

                  • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    5
                    arrow-down
                    8
                    ·
                    5 months ago

                    So you refuse to engage in the system and refuse to try to replace it? What the fuck are you doing here complaining? You have no right to complain, you’re literally doing nothing and watching the ship sink around you and shouting “hey! This sucks! I sure wish it was different!” How about you help fix it? Literally what are you doing like why would you do this you’re wasting everyone’s time

            • Ensign_Crab@lemmy.world
              link
              fedilink
              English
              arrow-up
              6
              arrow-down
              3
              ·
              5 months ago

              They’re about choosing the lesser of two evils. That’s important to remember.

              Which is why evil always wins.

      • theonyltruemupf@feddit.de
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        9
        arrow-down
        9
        ·
        5 months ago

        So you base your voting decision on an abstracted philosophical argument? Maybe take a good look at the US voting system and ask yourself what happens when Trump wins because people like you upheld their “principles”.

        • electric_nan@lemmy.ml
          link
          fedilink
          arrow-up
          10
          arrow-down
          5
          ·
          5 months ago

          I don’t understand why it is so hard to grasp that opposition to an ongoing genocide is not “an abstracted philosophical argument”. Wake the fuck up. It’s real, and it’s happening right now. The guy you insist I vote for is angry at the idea that anyone (not even himself) be held criminally responsible!

          • theonyltruemupf@feddit.de
            link
            fedilink
            arrow-up
            2
            arrow-down
            1
            ·
            5 months ago

            The only other option is indefinitely worse, so the responsible thing to do is voting for Biden. You can still oppose the war on Gaza. Protest it. Be loud. Fight to change the shitty undemocratic voting system of the US. Not voting Biden will not save a single life in Gaza. You are the one who needs to wake up.

          • Feathercrown@lemmy.world
            link
            fedilink
            English
            arrow-up
            5
            arrow-down
            8
            ·
            5 months ago

            It’a abstract because you aren’t considering the consequences of your vote. Here are your choices:

            • Genocide, unions, anti-monopoly actions, infrastructure, healthcare, loan forgiveness, an excellent cabinet, and some other things that I would consider generally good

            • Genocide, insurrection, corruption, hypocrisy, and literally so many negative things to list that I’m not capable of enumerating even a fraction of the total list

            • Either of the above is fine, pick whichever

            Those are your ONLY three options. It does not matter why you choose one. It does not matter what you believe, what principles you hold, or what you personally would do as president. The future that we find ourselves in comes down to this choice and this choice only. I cannot understand how a good person who understands this would make the wrong choice, so my goal is to make it as easy to understand this as possible.