• PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
    link
    fedilink
    arrow-up
    6
    arrow-down
    2
    ·
    12 days ago

    That’s just simply not true, not only most of jewish zionists claim to be religious and uses religious arguments for zionism but also the bulk of christian zionists are evangelical fanatics.

    • Piperpiper1@lemmy.ml
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      5
      ·
      12 days ago

      Zionism is flexible, it started out secular but it changed over time to better cater to the audience (religious Zionism).

      These aren’t inherently contradicting because the central theme of zionism is and will always be ethnonationalism + fascism. As long as those aspects remain, zionism can be whatever it needs to be to cater to its audience.

      • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
        link
        fedilink
        arrow-up
        4
        ·
        edit-2
        12 days ago

        Agree, i never said zionism is caused solely by religion, i just think that classifying zionist as “atheist” movement is simply not true when it have such significant religious following and motivations. Also “secular” is much better word than “atheist” here.

    • geneva_convenience@lemmy.mlOP
      link
      fedilink
      arrow-up
      1
      arrow-down
      6
      ·
      12 days ago

      Judaism as a religion believes that they will be led to the promised land by the return of their messiah. Zionists decided to cut that part out, defy their scripture and do the return part by themselves. Zionism sees Jews as purely a race.

      Zionism at its very essence is completely Atheistic. Its father Theodor Herzl was an Atheist.

      Zionism as a national movement that rebelled against historical Judaism was mainly atheistic. Most of its leaders and activists ceased believing in redemption through the coming of the Messiah, the long-standing essence of Jewish belief, and took their fate into their own hands. The power of the human subject replaced the power of the omnipotent God.

      The rabbis knew that, and were terrified – and, therefore, almost all of them became avowed anti-Zionists. From Hasidic rebbes Sholom Dovber Schneersohn, the Admor of Lubavitch (Chabad) and Yehudah Aryeh Leib Alter (the Admor of Gur) to leading U.S. Reform Rabbi Isaac Mayer Wise, founder of the Reform Central Conference, mitnagdim and Hasidim, Orthodox, Reform and Conservative, all saw the rise of Zionism as the end of Judaism. Due to the sweeping opposition of the rabbis of Germany, Theodor Herzl was forced to transfer the First Zionist Congress from Munich to the Swiss city of Basel.

              • PolandIsAStateOfMind@lemmy.ml
                link
                fedilink
                arrow-up
                4
                ·
                12 days ago

                And this make entire movement, nowadays heavily supported by religious fanatics from more than one religion suddenly atheists? At most you could say it had secular roots. Again, i’m not saying religion caused zionism, but atheism also didn’t.

                • geneva_convenience@lemmy.mlOP
                  link
                  fedilink
                  arrow-up
                  1
                  arrow-down
                  6
                  ·
                  edit-2
                  12 days ago

                  Atheism 100% caused Zionism. It was 0% religious Judaism 100% Atheism. As you can read the German Jews fully opposed Zionism in its early days.

                  The most influential ideology for early Zionism was Socialism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Labor_Zionism

                  It was mostly by Jabotinsky who pushed Zionist Revisionism as a way to increase the amount of colonists that it turned into the weird incoherent mix of religious and Atheist Jews that you see today. And the Israeli-British pogroms committed around the Middle East to push Jews to go to Israel.

                  • Arthur Besse@lemmy.ml
                    link
                    fedilink
                    English
                    arrow-up
                    3
                    ·
                    12 days ago

                    Atheism 100% caused Zionism.

                    What a ridiculous statement. Being founded by an atheist (if Herzl even actually was one - he was clearly non-religious, but many non-religious people are not atheists) is quite different than being caused by atheism.