Recently I posted a pretty harmless meme in my DSA chapter’s Discord (see image). It was in response to South Korea’s recent spate of Fascism.
In response I had comrades jump down my throat, attacking me for critical support of AES states like DPRK and China. According to these comrades “there is no real Socialist nation.”
As tempting as it is to quit DSA I think I should stay and try to educate.
Comrades also jumped on me for a comment I made months ago in response to some right wing BS where I said “maybe Democracy isn’t always a great idea”. The point I was trying to make was that Trans rights and other basic freedoms should never be put up to a popularity contest… I’m ok with a state that defends these rights and doesn’t allow a reactionary majority to vote them away!
During this thread, people brought up multiple times that DPRK isn’t Democratic because the Kim’s have always been the figurehead, China isn’t Democratic because “reasons” (racism), China lies about their suicide rates to WHO, etc.
Frustrating. I’ll post more details in the comments.
My question: What constitutes a “real” Democracy? Is it leadership changing hands every few years? We don’t have that in the U.S. Is it secret ballots? All the nationa above have that. Is it that the people’s votes and voices actually change the government actions? We saw this in China unfortunately when people demanded ending the COVID lock downs early. It was the wrong thing to do but done for the right reason.
And is there any hope for these people in my chapter? One of them was basically racist against Chinese people and they seem very set in this “not real Socialism” mindset.
The initial response:
Immediately showing their inaccurate knowledge of history in trying to make an example. The pyramids weren’t built by slaves, they were built by well paid artisans employed by the state. There is little to no evidence they were conscripted, and they certainly weren’t slaves, they were construction professionals who also built non-pyramid related projects. They ate better than the average free Egyptian not because they were well cared for slaves, but because they were wealthy.
Also even first Amenhotep was king around 1000 years after great pyramids were built and 700 years after they stopped build pyramids, so we would have to be Marxist-Leninist-Djoserists lol
Y’all are awesome. I always learn something new here
So I posted a link to this, just being friendly. “Here’s some reading on my perspective on these countries”
https://www.reddit.com/r/communism/wiki/debunk#wiki_anti-communist_myth_number_2.3A_the_dprk_is_a_fascist_monarchy
And then this person responded with “Lmao, no thoughts of your own?” which NGL pissed me off. As if your stance on these countries came from nowhere and not constant state propaganda 🙃
I think this person is just looking to fight and feel superior and is ultimately talking right past you because they’ve already categorized you as a mark for them to mock. Maybe you can complain to a moderator about this? This isn’t an acceptable way to talk to anyone in any context.
There’s definitely a “wrecker” element to this that I won’t elaborate on here. It’s like the dude was waiting for an “in” to attack me.
Removed by mod
What? I am curious as to how you mean or have experienced maoists being shitty but I havent had the chance to meet anyone who identifies as such.
The local MCU chapter has the pro-Mao, anti-Deng line. I understand where they’re coming from but also am trying to understand the history and conditions that led to things like the Deng reforms. I think the situation is more nuanced than “Deng betrayed China”.
Then again I don’t think it matters since this is one of the orgs with a year-long initiation process. How to grow your org: Make it harder for people to join :p
they are ultra leftists who exist in the US context as a group of Sinophobes who ironically worship a Chinese man without being able to apply that own man’s tools of analysis to their own strategies, instead opting to copy and paste what was relevant to China 75 years ago as if that is what needs to happen in Chicago, Boston, or Dallas in 2024.
In my personal organizing experience, they are wreckers who use a lot of words to take up a lot of space and aggressively push their positions without any evidence aside from hearkening back to a country on the other side of the planet’s revolution almost a century ago as the gold standard. Similar to trots and anarchists, always against the sincere communists and ending up on the side of imperialists against them.
The basis of their analysis is incorrect, and so they see the world and what needs to be done incorrectly as well.
Other things I posted:
He responded:
Note I’m the one posting links to more reading. He was just posting these opinions. TBF I wish I had more “hard” proof that DPRK elections are kosher but also doesn’t the UN have election observers to validate these?
You don’t need to provide “hard” proof because the burden of proof is on your interlocutor to provide. You’ve already done your part with your linked resources
https://redsails.org/china-has-billionaires/
Another person butted in at this point and strongly suggested China lies about their statistics. It can’t be China doing better, no they’re just good at lying 👀
I’m getting upset again. With “comrades” like these who needs enemies?
Why China is lying according to these shitheads:
Dammit I’m getting mad at this thread all over again.
China is lying because
. That’s why.
Shot:
Chaser:
I’m sorry, which “perfect” Socialist state is still around? None of them? So tell me again who is the idealist?
If they’re just being argumentative shit heads it’s not worth blowing your time arguing with them. Unless you are sure others are watching and learning, you’re just wrestling with a pig in shit (except pigs are smart and worthy of love
).
If they’re just blowing off your commentary, blow theirs off too. Taking these idiots seriously is a waste of time.
“cool how you, a devoted ML (or whatever flavour of leftist they identify as) , share all the same opinions as the state department”. Just talk past them and speak directly to whoever you think is more receptive. Ignoring these wrecker types also drives them up the wall, making it more likely that they do insane unhinged posts.
Yeah I have been considering joining my local DSA (they have begged me to join for years because of how effective I am rhetorically with general strangers) but shit like this puts me off.
My resolve however is unshakeable and I feel I could do well to agitate within this specific chapter.
Recently a customer where I work even told me everyone at some party they were at knew about me lol.
Do it! Education is so important especially now that disaffected libs are joining DSA right now.
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This sounds like some southerner confederacy shit lmao. Maybe this should be a hexbear tagline because it’s so unhinged like you might be talking to a literal child.
“21st [century]” wtf does that even mean all of these countries were formed before the illegal dissolution of the USSR. Also this is just buying into state department lies wholesale and this person will probably be telling you how Hamas is bad™ for Palestine and Israel is a flawed democracy with bad apples. Also this person just declares that North Korea “failed” socialism and gives no examples, likely because any example they would have given would just be debunked (this is common with literally everyone who insults the DPRK, no examples or evidence means they can’t ever be proven wrong and they are right because hegemonic anti-communism)
Western left only knows how to orientalist and lie. “No investigation no, right to speak” is their motto.