cross-posted from: https://lemmy.ml/post/20957893
By MEE staff. Published date: 2 October 2024 11:34 BST
Legal? Probably not. But there has been little interest for Israels international allies to uphold legal principles when it comes to Israeli actions.
Rational? In order to assess that we would need to know, which information they had when they made the decision. Probably we’ll have historians analyze and discuss this in a few years.
Legitimate? From what we know the strikes were aimed and hit military targets, in particular air bases. Weakening Israels ability to bomb people relentlessly like the continue to do in Gaza and Lebanon will prevent many more civilians being killed in those air raids.
Ultimately the problem with every military escalation is that there is only three possible scenarios. Either one side, or the other side miscalculated their strength and resolve compared to their enemies, or both sides miscalculated. If everyone involved calculated correctly, they wouldn’t bother fighting.
Your assuming those involved are remotely rational. Once you get to the point where someone is willing to kill themselves to kill others it doesn’t really matter about anyone else’s strength and resolve.
Honestly, considering the whole “land invasion of Lebanon” thing, I’d even say it was gentle.
“With God’s help, the blows of the uprising front will become stronger and more painful on the worn and rotting body of the Zionist regime,” he said.
Sounds very rational.
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Oh that explains a lot. Wonder when they’ll go full r/worldnews levels of post and comments control
That’s why we have a diverse moderation team. My politics don’t effect my moderation decisions. But even if they did, other mods would step in to correct it. And vice-versa.
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Why does stating that diversity doesn’t require a racist view uncivil?
Great in theory, in practice the others seem to have it going that way
If you have questions about a moderation decision, you can always message me or another mod. We have frequent discussions and often make changes to past and future moderation decisions based on user feedback.
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So you are denying South Sudan has a right to exist?
I definitely support the right of women to uncover their hair in public without getting murdered. Yet you seem to be spending an awful lot of energy defending the regime in Iran.
You went to a lot of trouble to answer a question no one asked.
I ask again, did Rhodesia have a right to exist?
I will remind you that the Europeans in Rhodesia also viewed their existence as an existential fight against barbarism.
Apartheid countries always do.
It was actually no trouble at all to discuss Iran in a post about Iran. What would be weird is if I started bringing up non-existent countries from completely different continents.
In recent history there have been three apartheid countries.
Apartheid South Africa (interestingly enough at the end they were ONLY supported by Israel which even then recognized they were an apartheid country) which peacefully gave equal rights to all citizens, even though they described the citizens with unequal rights as terrorists.
Rhodesia, with delusions of grandeur of their own martial skill (huh, the metaphor is even better than I thought. I mean, who the fuck thought it was a smart idea to have a tank heavy army in an urban setting without screening infantry.) That fought against giving their unequal citizens rights militarily until they were defeated.
And Israel. Whom every black person that lived through apartheid South Africa and has visited the West Bank or Gaza has described as being far worse in terms of humiliation and lack of rights.
And you wonder why I bring up Rhodesia?
At this point, defenders of Israel are as morally repugnant as every white person in the eighties that defended apartheid South Africa or Rhodesia.
And no, a racist (which is a required attribute to defend apartheid) is not a diverse voice that should be represented.
Oh and that racist country is currently trying to do everything in it’s power to start a war with Iran, and drag my country into it. Also, all the weapons that racist country uses is paid for with my tax dollars, so every one of the twenty thousand or more children it has blown up is someone that is dead through my money. So yeah, it’s very relevant. I’m sick of paying for Israel to murder children of a people whose land it wants.
As I already said, you are going to an awful lot of effort to defend a country that executes women for wearing a hair cover improperly.
I saw no defense of Iran in their comment. Like do you think everyone reading this cannot see exactly what you’re trying to do?
Twenty thousand child blown up, or shredded by shrapnel, or buried alive in a year. Multiple torture camps that keep civilians and doctors tied up tight enough that limbs are amputated regularly, the regular intentional targeting of medical personal, an apartheid government based on race.
That’s what you defend.
I don’t agree or like Iran’s government, but I don’t want a war with them. It says so much to everyone here that you read that as supporting them.
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Check it out, apparently pointing out a comment is from biased mod team member is another group of considered incivility here.
Oh well
Very cool, and very legal.
Following Friday’s killing of Nasrallah, a former conservative Iranian MP told MEE that Israel was behaving like a “rabid dog”, adding that it “must be controlled.”
well, there’s a first time for everything. i just agreed the first time with an Iranian conservative.
Its just as legal as israel’s attacks. Not that I think those are legal.
They’re not at all comparable. Iran’s missile’s killed one person, a Palestinian man but were not targeting civilians.
This is in retaliation for Israel’s full year of genocide, terrorism and attacks on its neighbours.
Israel uses bunker busters, and the most cruel and gruesome bombs dropped directly on refugee camps, hospitals, schools, humanitarian aid vans, journalist’s homes.
You’re making an argument for legitimacy not legality. All of the bombing that all of the parties have been doing is illegal under a strict reading of international law in that war is generally not allowed unless approved by some UN resolution.
Yes.
So your saying that one is more legal than the other. Nonsense.
Edit: Its funny how many people confuse their personal sense of morality for legal and illegal.
By funny I’m saying pathetic.
Nope. Just as illegal as Israel’s.
Very legal, very cool
Very demeure very mindful
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https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/iran-says-missile-attack-israel-legal-rational-legitimate
maybe stop harbouring terrorists and you won’t get bombed by israel pre-emptive strikes??
i have no love for these terrorists but if they are all gathered at one place…i can deal with the diplomatic fallout later.
Iran should definitely stop harbouring terrorism. SO SHOULD FUCKING ISRAEL.
if you meant hamas,they are in gaza not israel unless these hamas terrorists managed to dig a hole to israel.
No I mean Israel. Israel is a sponsor of terrorism. In the Occupied Territories, the IDF and the Israeli state are continuously aiding and abetting radical settler militias in terrorizing the indigenous population, like their terrorist forefathers in the Irgun in the 1940s. In Gaza, the IDF itself is employing mass terror tactics against the population in service of ethnic cleansing. In Lebanon, the Mossad employed terror tactics with the mass detonation of battery-operated devices a couple of weeks ago. They are also currently employing mass terror tactics against the Lebanese population. They have also engaged in extra-judicial assassinations of political figures, another terror tactic. Israel is a major source of terror and destabilization in the Middle East. They should fucking stop.
gee,i wonder who attacked israel and called for the destruction of israel when they decided to proclaim independence??
who was it that decided to leave no stone unturned and ensure something something from the river to the sea?
can’t really blame the jewish people for being jittery after experiencing ww2.
wanna stablise middle east??? maybe stop calling for the genocide of the jewish state,her people and stop wanting to something something river to the sea.
I called for the end of Israeli state terror and you name that a call for genociding jews. That’s batshit insane and paranoid buddy. (By the way, you can’t “genocide a state”, that’s bullshit.)
And quit it with the zionist apologia. None of the “ooo who did that 70 years ago” matters, this is the post-Oslo world, when the PLO/PA has formally accepted Israel’s right to exist, all while Israel colonizes their lands in clear violation of their own signed agreements. Save it for evangelical fundamentalist bootlickers and impressionable young diaspora kids who haven’t been deprogrammed yet.
can’t read well can you?
everyone arbitrary decides how far back in time they get to use to justify their genocidal action,hamas,plo,pla and whichever islamic terrorists sees fit to use.
then we have the idiots chiming in to regurgitate the islamic propaganda and rant about zionists this and zionists that.
mofo,if you want middle east to be at peace,end hamas,their supporters and the rest of the Islamic terrorist organizations.
saudi arabia and israel were on the cusp of normalizing relations until Oct 7th where hamas terrorists decides to do what they do best and today we have people like you blaming israel for anything and everything. if israel is such a terror state,i am pretty sure it wouldn’t have survived until today and prosper unlike gaza with their terrorist tendencies and supporters.
Get off your nationalist garrison mentality and you’ll immediately see that I’m not blaming Israel for everything. I specifically started by saying that “Iran should definitely stop harbouring terrorism”. Literally my very first fucking sentence in this interaction. I have no hesitation to also label Hezbollah and Hamas as despicable terrorists as well. Fuck. Them.
What I am also doing is blaming Israel for what Israel does, something that you are having trouble computing because you’re trapped in an “us and them” knuckle-dragging mentality. Super conveniently for your terror narrative, the ONE accusation that you don’t even mention is my very FIRST one: that Israel is aiding and abetting terrorism by radical settler militias against the indigenous population of the West Bank. That alone is enough to 100% condemn Israel as a state sponsor of terror.
We have an actual A/B testing scenario here, a perfect natural experiment. The West Bank is what “Palestine without Hamas” looks like. And damningly for kahanist bootlickers “Palestine without Hamas” is an apartheid state/bantustan where the Israeli state apparatus has banalized the extreme degradation, oppression, murder and dehumanization of 2 million people.
Did you miss the part where they said to save it? Nobody here is going to ever read this exchange and change their mind to agree with you. This isn’t reddit or Facebook
The slogan From the River to the Sea is about Palestinian liberation that started in the 60s by the PLO for a democratic secular state, not Genocide. The Syrian leader Hafez al-Assad in 1966 maybe, but he’s not Palestinian.
You again are conflating Zionism with Judaism, which are 2 very different things. Israel has never represented all Jewish people and never will, nor are it’s actions done to benefit all Jewish people. The conflation is itself antisemitic. Adi Callai, an Israeli, does a great analysis of how Antisemitism has been weaponized (see 29:01) by Zionism during its history.
Origins of Zionism
Zionism is a settler colonialism project that was able to really start with the support of British Imperialism. Zionism as a political movement started with Theodore Herzl in the 1880s as a ‘modern’ way to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ of Europe.
Since at least the 1860’s, Europe was increasingly antisemitic and hostile to Jewish people. Zionism was explicitly a Setter Colonialist movement and the native Palestinians were not considered People but Savages by the Europeans. While Zionist Colonization began before it, the Balfor Declaration is when Britain gave it’s backing of the movement in order to ‘solve’ the ‘Jewish Question’ while also creating a Colony in the newly conquered Middle East after WWI in order to exhibit military force in the region and extract natural resources.
That’s when Zionist immigration started to pick up, out of necessity for most as Europe became more hostile and antisemitic. That continued into and during WWII, European countries and even the US refused to expand immigration quotas for Jewish people seeking asylum. The idea that the creation of Israel is a reparation for Jewish people is an after-the-fact justification. While most Jewish immigrants had no choice and just wanted a place to live in peace, it was the Zionist Leadership that developed and implemented the forced transfer, ethnic cleansing, of the native population, Palestinians. Without any Occupation, Apartheid, and ethnic cleansing, there would not be any Palestinian resistance to it.
Herzl himself explicitly considered Zionism a Settler Colonialist project, Setter Colonialism is always violent. The difficulty in creating a democratic Jewish state in an area inhabited by people who are not Jewish, is that enough Palestinian people need to be ‘Transferred’ to have a demographic majority that is Jewish. Ben-Gurion explicitly rejected Secular Bi-national state solutions in favor of partition.
Quote
Zionism’s aims in Palestine, its deeply-held conviction that the Land of Israel belonged exclusively to the Jewish people as a whole, and the idea of Palestine’s “civilizational barrenness" or “emptiness” against the background of European imperialist ideologies all converged in the logical conclusion that the native population should make way for thenewcomers.
The idea that the Palestinian Arabs must find a place for themselves elsewhere was articulated early on. Indeed, the founder of the movement, Theodor Herzl, provided an early reference to transfer even before he formally outlined his theory of Zionist rebirth in his Judenstat.
An 1895 entry in his diary provides in embryonic form many of the elements that were to be demonstrated repeatedly in the Zionist quest for solutions to the “Arab problem ”-the idea of dealing with state governments over the heads of the indigenous population, Jewish acquisition of property that would be inalienable, “Hebrew Land" and “Hebrew Labor,” and the removal of the native population.
Settlements, Occupation, and Apartheid
Israel justifies the settlements and military bases in the West Bank in the name of Security. However, the reality of the settlements on-the-ground has been the cause of violent resistance and a significant obstacle to peace, as it has been for decades.
This type of settlement, where the native population gets ‘Transferred’ to make room for the settlers, is a long standing practice.
- The Transfer Committee, and the JNF Ethnic Cleansing, which led to Forced Displacement of 100,000 Palestinians throughout the mandate before the Nakba
The mass ethnic cleansing campaign of 1948:
Further, declassified Israeli documents show that the Occupation of the West Bank and Gaza Strip were deliberately planned before being executed in 1967:
While the peace process was exploited to continue de-facto annexation of the West Bank via Settlements
The settlements are maintained through a violent apartheid that routinely employs violence towards Palestinians and denies human rights like water access, civil rights, etc. This kind of control gives rise to violent resistance to the Apartheid occupation, jeopardizing the safety of Israeli civilians.
State violence – official and otherwise – is part and parcel of Israel’s apartheid regime, which aims to create a Jewish-only space between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. The regime treats land as a resource designed to serve the Jewish public, and accordingly uses it almost exclusively to develop and expand existing Jewish residential communities and to build new ones. At the same time, the regime fragments Palestinian space, dispossesses Palestinians of their land and relegates them to living in small, over-populated enclaves.
The apartheid regime is based on organized, systemic violence against Palestinians, which is carried out by numerous agents: the government, the military, the Civil Administration, the Supreme Court, the Israel Police, the Israel Security Agency, the Israel Prison Service, the Israel Nature and Parks Authority, and others. Settlers are another item on this list, and the state incorporates their violence into its own official acts of violence. Settler violence sometimes precedes instances of official violence by Israeli authorities, and at other times is incorporated into them. Like state violence, settler violence is organized, institutionalized, well-equipped and implemented in order to achieve a defined strategic goal.
Visualizing the Ethnic Cleansing
Historian Works on the History
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Palestine: A Four Thousand Year History - Nur Masalha
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The Concept of Transfer 1882-1948 - Nur Masalha
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A History of Modern Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The Hundred Years’ War on Palestine - Rashid Khalidi
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The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine - Ilan Pappe
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The 1967 Arab-Israeli War: Origins and Consequences - Avi Shlaim
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The Biggest Prison on Earth: A History of the Occupied Territories - Ilan Pappe
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The Gaza Strip: The Political Economy of De-development - Sara Roy
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10 Myths About Israel - Ilan Pappe (summery)
pre-emptive strikes
AKA literally state-sponsored terrorism. Or were those babies terrorists too?
“I’m sorry but we just can’t not genocide. Anyone trying to stop us from genociding is anti-Semitic and will also need to be genocided. It just cannot be helped.”
That’s you.
Palestine state sponsored terrorism,do you condemn it or not??
anything else is just you being a terrorist sympathiser.
So you recognize that Palestine is a state?
do you condemn Palestine’s state sponsored terrorism??
yes or no?
anything else is just hogwash and terrorist sympathies.
I don’t condemn resistance against illegal occupation. By all means necessary, in accordance with multiple UN resolutions.
Now you answer the question.
then i support israel in whatever they are doing to eliminate terrorists,including occupying lands where it can be used by said terrorists. whatever means necessary,whether it’s in accordance to UN resolution or not.
Israel is the terrorist. They should go back to Germany and stop stealing Arab lands and this would all be over tomorrow.
Huh, I wonder why all the Jews left Germany in the first place…
last i checked arabs have been stealing lands from each other, including jewish lands.
if you wanna call jewish people thieves,maybe ensure the arabs aren’t thieves themselves.
last I checked
When was the last you checked, during the Ottoman fucking Empire?
what does it fucking matter to you?
Damn, and here I thought that was a clever retort lol
fuck if i care.
Cool