From all the concern trolling I see in the other instances it’s clear that there’s no winning over these people. Everything is “Kremlin propaganda” to them. I do think a lot of chapos did go a little overboard with the PPB, but even thoughtful responses were met with the “hateful rhetoric” and “Kremlin talking points” BS. As always, it is to the Global South we must look to for any hope in the future…
Some of the people I’ve encountered over the past few weeks feel like such relics. I don’t mean that they seem old or out of touch, but their politics seem to have ceased moving around 2009. It’s the feel good liberalism without specific policy goals. It’s so empty that I have to wonder what sort of lives they’ve had to be so just…liberal.
Like a lot of us were galvanized by the 2008 economic crisis, or perhaps we were part of anti-war movements, or labor movements or maybe we slammed head first into realizing just how anti-LGBTQ everything is.
But for some of the folk I’ve encountered, you’d think the primary three problems of the world are Russia, China, and liberals being uncomfortable online.
I agree that the most revolutionary potential lies in the global south. Hopefully, more gains can be made through partnerships with China, particularly as the US position geopolitically seems likely to weaken. Even now the US seems only able to accomplish relatively short term gains while setting themselves up for longterm defeats (the proxy war in Ukraine dwmonstrates this).
Its not surprising that revolutionary potential, and the possibility of real gains is higher on the periphery than within the imperial core. I think a lot of western leftists deal with brainworms (for understandable reasons) the the West is the main character of history, so the revolution must happen here and lead the world. There’s over a centuries worth of evidence to the contrary.
I say its understandable because its a less extreme version of the classic “left” liberal brainworm of “the US may be bad, but [target country] is worse.” Its also seen throughout left anti-communism’s stance and critiscims against AES. The unexamined assumption that the nations of the imperial core will be the leaders of the socialist revolution as opposed ro the last and most dangerous holdouts of a dying imperial order, is, i think, the last vestige of this way of thinking.
This isn’t, and I’m not endorsing, a doomerist position for communists in the imperial core. A better world is possible, and we should do what we can to defend our comrades at home from rising fascism and support our comrades abroad on the periphery. Not being the “main character” does mean there is no role to play. Revolution is like an Eisenstein film, the people, the class, are the main character and we are united across boarders
This isn’t, and I’m not endorsing, a doomerist position for communists in the imperial core. A better world is possible, and we should do what we can to defend our comrades at home from rising fascism and support our comrades abroad on the periphery.
With regards to this, I literally was talking to a woman the other day who readily admitted things like: how behind every successful man there are countless women who do unpaid emotional labor, how companies are taking in too much in profit for no reason, how companies will cynically shield themselves from criticism by appointing a POC ceo, etc. etc. She even said that workers should get a share in the profits of the company. I jokingly responded that her idea sounded kind of like socialism, and she immediately replied, “no it’s not socialism, I believe in capitalism, just not with so many excesses.” And this is a black woman who fully understands intersectionality, the problem of corporations, etc. So I’m a little doomer not just online, but IRL as well…
I’m really curious as to what she thinks capitalism and socialism are.
That’s a great question. Most people don’t even know what supporting capitalism means. Propaganda being what it is, capitslism just equals good in most people’s eyes in the west
Capitalism and socialism to most westerners might as well refer to moral character traits rather than distinct political structures. Capitalism just means something like ingenuity but also greed. Socialism means altruism but also bland uniformity.
The more politically minded westerner might think capitalism means wealth disparity and socialism means everyone gets paid the same.
Annoying internet arguments aside, the people on the ground in the core also face the most expansive and advanced police state mankind has created yet. This makes doing anything close to truly subversive impossible without extreme precautions. Some Ferguson organizers dying (being murdered imo) comes to mind.
I searched Ferguson and got some stuff about BLM protests in reaction to the murder of an 18 year old. Was there something more recent or was this what you were referring to?
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/puzzling-number-men-tied-ferguson-protests-have-died-n984261
yes the shooting of Michael Brown from 10 years ago. Weird to type out, goddamn
Two young men were found dead inside torched cars
Ah yes, a very normal and non-suspicious death that happens normally
found dead inside torched cars
Ah yes, a very normal and non-suspicious death that happens normally
Obviously not at all in this case, but it is normal for a certain car manufacturer
Please do not draw conclusions from how people post on a niche internet forum.
True, though it’s arguably worse in the general population. Western indoctrination runs deeeeep.
Idk may just be my personal experience but I’ve never heard anyone irl say anything close to as weird about geopolitical stuff or communism as I’ve seen from liberals since federation. Closest is my dad saying once that he agreed with Patton that the western allies should have “kept going” (like the opposite of our “Stalin shouldnt have stopped at Berlin” thing) but that was a one time thing.
Maybe its because I haven’t really bothered to say things that challenge liberal perspectives about geopolitics I guess? But it says something that they certainly haven’t volunteered that kind of weird shit.
That said I haven’t had much human contact since I lost my old job so maybe my experience is limited.
Idk may just be my personal experience but I’ve never heard anyone irl say anything close to as weird about geopolitical stuff or communism as I’ve seen from liberals since federation.
Back when the SMO started in early 2022, I was hanging out with some ppl IRL and one of them just blatantly said “they should just take him [Putin] out” (as in assassinate him). And this was at a milquetoast event where geopolitics wasn’t even the reason we were there (it was a trivia night). So yeah even irl normies have some pretty warped views. Another guy I know just blatantly repeated the “China is buying up all the farmland in the US” nonsense…
I just had a conversation about the wave of true crime media with my coworkers. They were visibility uncomfortable when I pointed out it just how wild it is the cops are so bad at their jobs an entire media empire spawned from it. One guy couldn’t bring himself to speak and we had to change the subject.
ooo I wanna hear more about this.
It was sad really. They were talking about the one dhalmer victim that the cops gave back to him. They were trying to work out how the cops didn’t realize it. What details caused them to overlook the situation. I told them the cops knew. They knew and didn’t care. It was poor black gay kids mostly. Half of them they had already arrested for the crime of going to a gay bar, the other half had been arrested for the usual racism. I pointed out how these cops would have been trained by working under the apartide rules of Jim Crow. So after they gave the crying bleeding child back to the man that openly stated he was having sex with him, they laughed and placed bets on if they would ever see the kid again as they drove back to the station so they could clock out and beat their wives. Obviously that is the only interpretation that fits the data. One of my coworkers glitched out. He got quiet and started doing the, “no, but see… if they…” routine for a minute before we changed the subject and he just sat quietly. I am the most cis het white guy at work so when I talk shit on the cops really people really have a hard time pushing back. They want to, I work in a middle class environment so they want to.
I’ve tried to talk to libs about China because I’m Chinese so maybe that’s why I have a different perspective.
Its like everyone around you refusing to believe that the sky is blue because BBC told them that the sky is green. After a while you start to question even yourself.
Someone here on Hexbear said something like liberals don’t believe in other countries as existing geopolitical entities with diverse populations and economies. They think of places like Russia and China as mischievous polytheistic gods with distinct character flaws and demonic powers to influence people’s minds. They think of Putin as some malignant devil in the clouds watching all discussion about him.
you shouldn’t want to save the west
But black dynamite, I live in the west
Those people don’t really believe in anything, when the US states department dumps Ukraine and moves on to other imperial projects they’ll shift their whole “belief system” right along with it
In a years time you’ll see these very same people begin concern trolling about the bad behavior of Ukrainian refugees, they’ll start using words like “ungrateful”, “authoritarian” and “mentally colonized by ruzzia”
But you’re right there is no hope in the north until climate change begins wrecking property values in significant numbers
The industrial and revolutionary fulcrum of the world lies in the global south
There’s a reason so many people believed the Iraq war lies. Propaganda works. Then and now.
It works, but how is baffling. Anyone paying a mild amount of attention knew we had been fucking over Iraq since the 1st gulf War. Basically the first Bush admin said if we topple this country it will be nightmare. and they stopped. (getting a ton of ppl they told to rebel killed in the process. we even loaned Iraq military hardware to mop up.)
The end of history is actually about how the lumpen have no memory of any political events that are no longer being blasted 24/7 on the news. History may as well not exist for 90% of Americans because history is in books.
Mix that with straight jingoism and you can blow up anything. Fucking sad.
