Every single “evidence” I’ve ever seen of this genocide ended up as hoax (remember the meat truck?), so I think it’s pretty safe to say it isn’t a thing.
By the way, you can GO TO XINJIANG as a tourist. You can talk to the people there. You can experience their culture for yourself. How’s the Freedom Floatila doing in comparison?
Hell, go on RedNote, an explicitly PRC centric app with state control and cEnSoRsHiP and you’ll see Uyghurs in and outside Xinjiang proudly sharing their culture. Wonder how many Palestinians are allowed on Israeli social media.
Also, Uyghurs can, get this, leave the country that’s “genociding” them and many do every year for the Haj pilgrimage. Can Palestinians do the same? Uyghurs can also, get this, go back to the same home and possessions they had before they left without worrying about an Israeli or Han Chinese family moving in while they were gone.
Also also, look up “minority status” in China and how mixed race Han-Uyghur people usually identify with their Uyghur heritage on official papers because it opens up more social support programs like scholarships. They (and every other minority) were also automatically exempt from the One Child Policy which is a pretty stupid move if they’re trying to get rid of them. You literally get more perks from the government if you’re not Han, and this is supported by both the majority and minority ethnicities in China. What does Palestinian status in Israel get you again, I forget.
15 dollars currently just in this thread, and 45 in downvotes.
I have seen far too many dead Palestinians and zero dead Uyghurs
You have to know that’s a terrible argument, right?
So evidence is useless. Is that what you are saying?
I’m not repeating this conversation with someone who is as openly aggressive as you out of the gate. Read the rest of this comment chain.
Oh no! Someone met my energy with the exact same energy! What an asshole!
I don’t know what this means
I’m not the one calling valid observations dumb arguments.
I’ve never seen anyone die, does that mean they don’t?
For all I know there are living people and there are corpses but they are different things.
The fact is there is hard evidence for a genocide in one case, and not in the other. If you have other reasons to believe the latter is still happening, then make them known. Otherwise it is no more plausible than telling elephants may dwell on the moon, despite no sightings.
Ok you’re not reading so I’m not going to respond. Either read the thread and respond to the thread or stop talking to me.
No actually the complete absence of evidence for the uighur genocide compared to the overwhelming body of evidence for the palestinian genocide makes for an extremely strong argument that the former is fictional
So there is nothing you haven’t seen with your own eyes but acknowledge exists?
That’s the only argument we’re discussing here.
I have spoken to Uyghurs in Xinjiang and I have engaged on Xitter with their government-in-exile in Washington D.C. and I know who I stand with on this issue. I hope to see Xinjiang with my own eyes someday soon. The Taklamayan Desert is too captivating, even in pictures. I must hold its grains in my hand. Soon. The sands are calling @[email protected]. The sands are calling.
So who do you stand with?
That having been said I don’t actually know why you’re responding to me. It sounds like you have some kind of actual evidence backing up your beliefs (whatever those beliefs may be) which means you don’t fall into the category of stupid we were discussing.
Let’s just say that Arslan Hiyadat was very impolite to me and the way to a man’s heart is through his stomach
More fun if you go via the neck
Big claims require big evidence, especially when they’re coming from the US about alleged human rights violations that coincidentally happen to justify our preexisting foreign policy goals
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I trust the OIC more than I trust any Western liberal on this. The same liberals who more often than not support Israel.
I mean genocide doesnt concern buildings. There is a war in Gaza and not in Xinjiang. And there is many stages in Genocide. Palestinians are being killed nonindustrially and being displaced. Advanced, but not maxed-out genocide. Claims about Xinjiang say they are being forcefully sterilzed, and cultural leaders are being detained and tortured. I believe victims first and foremost.
You owe it to yourself to actually listen to the Uyghur people in Xinjiang, rather than what western news outlets and propagandists like Adrian Zenz espouse.
watch these videos
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There is no claim that the West could make about China that you wouldn’t believe as an article of faith
Show me where in East Turkmenistan it looks like anywhere in Palestine?
No, China is not commiting genocide. The best and most comprehensive resource I have seen so far is Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang: A Resource and Report Compilation. Qiao Collective is explicitly pro-PRC, but this is an extremely comprehensive write-up of the entire background of the events, the timeline of reports, and real and fake claims.
I also recommend reading the UN report and China’s response to it. These are the most relevant accusations and responses without delving into straight up fantasy like Adrian Zenz, professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation, does.
Tourists do go to Xinjiang all the time as well. You can watch videos like this one on YouTube, though it obviously isn’t going to be a comprehensive view of a complex situation like this. Even with all of the real complexities, though, nothing material measures up to claims of genocide.
Thanks for linking the UN Report - really horrific stuff:
Two-thirds of the twenty-six former detainees interviewed, reported having been subjected to treatment that would amount to torture and/or other forms of ill-treatment, either in VETC facilities themselves or in the context of processes of referral to VETC facilities. These claims of mistreatment took place either during interrogations or as a form of punishment for (alleged) wrongdoing. Their accounts included being beaten with batons, including electric batons while strapped in a so- called “tiger chair”; being subjected to interrogation with water being poured in their faces; prolonged solitary confinement; and being forced to sit motionless on small stools for prolonged periods of time.
Some also spoke of various forms of sexual violence, including some instances of rape, affecting mainly women. These accounts included having been forced by guards to perform oral sex in the context of an interrogation and various forms of sexual humiliation, including forced nudity. The accounts similarly described the way in which rapes took place outside the dormitories, in separate rooms without cameras. In addition, several women recounted being subject to invasive gynaecological examinations, including one woman who described this taking place in a group setting which “made old women ashamed and young girls cry”, because they did not understand what was happening. The Government has firmly denied these claims, often through personal or gendered attacks against the women who have publicly reported these allegations.
The extent of arbitrary and discriminatory detention of members of Uyghur and other predominantly Muslim groups, pursuant to law and policy, in context of restrictions and deprivation more generally of fundamental rights enjoyed individually and collectively, may constitute international crimes, in particular crimes against humanity.
You’re right it’s incorrect to call it a genocide but I’m glad you at least agree that “rape”, “torture”, “deprivation of fundamental rights” and probable “crimes against humanity” are being committed in the “re-education” camps against non-Han ethnic groups with the government being at the very least complicit by denying any wrongdoing - so it’s good to know you don’t blindly believe the CCP to be a benevolent force for good but can recognize the harm they’ve already caused to Uyghurs, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Uzbeks and Huis in Xinjiang.
I encourage you to read China’s response, and Qiao Collective’s resources. I said the UN report is the best source on the allegations, not that it’s a fully correct and verified document. The accusations are high, yes, which is why both sides of the argument need to be listened to. You wouldn’t refuse to listen to evidence brought by defendents, would you?
https://www.globalr2p.org/countries/china/
While the OHCHR assessment (Aug 31, 2022) does not indicate genocide, its authors are being pedantic. The findings you cited indicate crimes against humanity including reproductive-rights abuses. (click “UN report and China’s response to it” then scroll to the bottom to download the PDF) They might not be lining them up in the streets and shooting them, but they ARE trying to exterminate them, and treat them as less than human in the process. Whether the report authors use the word “genocide” is immaterial.
Read the report yourself, you’ll see that what’s happening is unchecked criminal, inhumane activity directed at the Uyghur population and other predominantly Muslim ethnic minority communities in Xinjiang.
the OHCHR assessment (Aug 31, 2022) does not indicate genocide
Great, done, stop typing. Everything else is just blatant Motte and Baillie
This is incorrect I’m afraid. The OHCHR assessment should have indicated genocide. I suspect that admitting you’re wrong is difficult for you, but in this case it’s patently clear for the reasons I stated above. This difference in terminology is pedantic; what’s important is the suffering and persecution that’s going on in China, and you’ve failed to address any of it. I wish you the best of luck in your journey, but I have no more time to donate to you. Have a day.
The OHCHR assessment should have indicated genocide.
Uhuh, so It’s not incorrect, you just disagree
I suspect that admitting you’re wrong is difficult for you
Go back to reddit you fucking loser.
This difference in terminology is pedantic
Are, you’re into the “Words don’t mean things!” phase of argument.
This difference in terminology is pedantic; what’s important is the suffering and persecution that’s going on in China, and you’ve failed to address any of it.
Uhuh, so like I said, just blatant Motte and Baillie
I wish you the best of luck in your journey, but I have no more time to donate to you. Have a day.
“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.” ― Jean-Paul Sartre
So your argument is “they are just dehumanizing and trying to exterminate a group of people, and I’m chill with that”? A bold position.
No, that’s very obviously not “my argument”, but I wouldn’t expect you to be above lying and putting words in my mouth.
Well then why did you say the rest of the post of the person you’re responding to doesn’t matter? You did say that, didn’t you? You told them to stop and that their argument is faulty, but didn’t deny the actual claims. That implies to me you don’t care. If you do care, you did an extremely poor job of showing it by telling them to stop talking.
So if the above is so completely off base, why don’t you continue your argument with the poster above?
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That is not something anyone here has said, dumbass
Seems that way. Person 2 above said “it’s not x but it is y”, person above said “you can stop at it’s not x” implying to me they are fine with “but it is y”. What’s wrong with that inference?
implying
No
What’s wrong with it is it’s factually inaccurate, fucking duh. You can stop at “it’s not genocide” because that by itself is an entirely accurate statement, everything you said after that is bullshit, and the comment you’re referring to was not ambiguous about that at all so you have absolutely no excuse for pretending otherwise.
No, this is wrong, the PRC is not exterminating Uyghurs. Uyghurs were, as ethnic minorities, exempted from the one child policy, and now have better access to things like IUDs for proper family planning. The PRC is not trying to exterminate Uyghurs, your claims are fantastical.
it’s in the article you cited my dude
I cited it as a beginning of understanding the allegations, which you yourself go above and beyond into fantasy by claiming China is “trying to exterminate the Uyghurs.” Did you read China’s response, or the Qiao Collective’s resource compilation?
["While individual women have spoken out before about forced birth control, the practice is far more widespread and systematic than previously known, according to an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. The campaign over the past four years in the far west region of Xinjiang is leading to what some experts are calling a form of “demographic genocide.”
The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands, the interviews and data show. Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang."]( https://apnews.com/article/ap-top-news-international-news-weekend-reads-china-health-269b3de1af34e17c1941a514f78d764c#%3A~%3Atext=The+Chinese+government+is+taking%2Cmajority+to+have+more+children)
The hundreds of millions of dollars the government pours into birth control has transformed Xinjiang from one of China’s fastest-growing regions to among its slowest in just a few years, according to new research obtained by The Associated Press in advance of publication by China scholar Adrian Zenz.
“This kind of drop is unprecedented…there’s a ruthlessness to it,” said Zenz, a leading expert in the policing of China’s minority regions. “This is part of a wider control campaign to subjugate the Uighurs.”
You’re citing the very same professional propagandist for the Victims of Communism Foundation I spoke of earlier. This is not a real source, it’s fiction. Here’s a decent source going over Zenz and his background as a propagandist.
IUD usage is increasing as Xinjiang develops economically and family planning becomes more important. The Uyghur people were exempt from the One Child Policy, and as a consequence the increase in IUD usage seems more drastic than it actually is, plus Zenz was caught literally making up numbers.
Did you not read my comment? I posted a link to the assessment which has an annex containing China’s response.
… how old are you? if you don’t mind me asking
I do mind you asking, and yes, I do understand what you linked. I’ve read the report, and again, did you read China’s response, and did you read Qiao Collective’s resources? The PRC is not exterminating Uyghurs, again, read the response itself and Qiao Collective’s resources. Read section 25 of China’s response.
The state department thanks you for your service patriot
Reading your source, it sure sounds like genocide.
That said, it seems like a summary rather than a detailed report and I can’t find the source in the page.
The other people responding to you are saying “did you read the statement by the perpetrators of the genocide denying it?” Sounds like a rather silly statement.
Can’t really weigh in on this but on the face of it it does feel like tankie behaviour.
EDIT: I’ve now skimmed the UN Human Rights report and it’s definitely genocide. The only possible claim against this is that all of their information is false, which seems unlikely.
I’ll also add that the first response above linking to the UN source I’ve seen copy pasted elsewhere. That doesn’t necessarily mean much but, yeah.
Are countries not allowed to offer evidence to clear their name of allegations against them? Are independent groups not allowed to create detailed compilations of resources that go more in-depth than the UN report or China’s response? I don’t think it’s a bad thing that leftists offer counter-evidence to western allegations. China isn’t just saying “no lol” in their response, they provided data and evidence backing up their case.
In a legal battle, do you only listen to evidence from the side accusing the defendant? Only skimming only the accusation seems like you genuinely aren’t interested in the truth of the matter and only want an excuse to agree with the accusation.
As for copying and pasting, yes, I reuse the same comment for the same low-effort claims, because it’s still useful. I’m not going to bespoke craft a new response with the same evidence and support for essentially the same claims.
Thanks !
The state department thanks you for your service patriot
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They’re not even on the ballot lol.
Your daily reminder that Americans don’t think foreigners are real
What?
YOUR DAILY REMINDER THAT AMERICANS DON’T THINK FOREIGNERS ARE REAL
If you are USAmerican, didn’t your govt actively kill/silence/sabotage the leftists?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McCarthyism
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Hampton
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_GladioYou have no successful left because it gets actively killed by your govt. Your govt is even planning to send its military/national guard into the cities in your country where “liberals” are in power, right?
And regarding doubts on the claim on Xinjiang pushed by your govt, it looks like them manufacturing consent against their enemies rather than caring about the issue, because they are actively supporting genocide in Gaza.
With the history on the invasion of Iraq, why wouldn’t people doubt it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nayirah_testimonyThere are plenty of mainstream, public leftists. Some of them run for official positions. Many of them express their opinions online with full name and credentials.
You’re trying to give the leftists an excuse for not succeeding, but it’s their fault, not their government’s.
Who are they? I have heard of centre-left folk like Bernie Sanders and AOC. Any Marxist leader?
I think they seem as leftists only in the context of America
I’m from India, we have a Fabian socialist influence(but we have a RW party in power here for over a decade now) and from the net your available main party options seem to be centre-left to Right.
And you have no real economical left too, right? Bernie Sanders who was bit left of centre-left was restricted by his party, right?
You’re right, our political spectrum has been “stretched” so far to the right that even our left feels centrist to other developed nations.
It makes a lot of American leftists angry. To them it’s unconscionable that so many people (including leadership) agrees with right-wing agenda.
Angry leftists here often say hurtful things and it upsets me, I should probably apologize to the guy above
Liberals are not leftists, the US government has a long and extremely well documented history of sabotaging and directly attacking actual leftists domestically and internationally, every idea you have is verifiably wrong
Leftists are currently in charge of the world’s largest economy by PPP, and are bringing forth an alternative to dying capitalism. The left in the US Empire was systematically crushed and murdered during the 20th century, and only now are we beginning to establish the cohesion and unity we once had in the early 20th century.
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I encourage you to look at the evidence presented in this thread by everyone here, including the sources. There’s good reason the leftists tend to have well-documented, well-sourced cases and counter-examples, while professional propagandists like Adrian Zenz feature prominently in western sources.
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As opposed to western propaganda outlets? Xinjiang and the PRC’s treatment of the Uyghur people is one of the single most politicized aspects of CPC policy, why would you not read what pro-PRC groups have to say? Do you only listen to the side accusing defendants, and not the defendants?
Compare the state of mosques and the state of the language and script, in both East Turkmenistan and Palestine.
Most reasonable liberal
Always a fedditor 🤣
Wrong and dumb
Please prove yourself by walking in traditional uyghur clothing with an uyghur flag in a city like kashgar and live stream the event. Prove how accepting the general public is and how the police will treat you respectfully.
Yes, don’t be surprised when the locals rightfully get pissed at a white person appropriating their culture in their homeland for internet clout.
If you’re talking about the actual people of that cultutre doing it, there are tons on both RedNote and YouTube if you search in Chinese or Uyghur.
Actually, most of these comments seem to stem from people not finding videos like these when searching in English and therefore automatically assuming they don’t exist. Even though they do. And that’s assuming you searched at all in any language which most of you haven’t. Surprise surprise, most Uyghurs in Xinjiang don’t speak or upload videos in English.
kashgar
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DWqxmGpComs
there’s so many different travel vlogs about this city, looks pretty nice and thriving full of culture
Many people said the same of Berlin, Hamburg, and other German cities while Jews were kept as slaves in factories and trained out to camps to be gassed. A nice looking city says nothing about the treatment of minorities. In fact many of the “nicest cities” in the world were built on the blood and bones of indigenous inhabitants.
Many people said there was many travel vlogs in 1930s Germany…
You fucking idiot
Nobody had pocket video cameras during ww2 or sattelites that can take high definition photos of any patch of dirt on earth, with current tech it would be extremely easy to get a shitload of incontrovertible physical evidence from countless angles, and yet after years of accusations we have none
You’re absolutely right about sattelites, that’s why we have extensive evidence: https://www.tearline.mil/public_page/xinjiang-nighttime-1
Nothing in this even comes close to proving a genocide, they can’t even conclusively prove that the structures in question are detention facilites lol, try harder patriot
To clarify, do I think the Uigers are being massacred at population scale? I don’t know. Do I think they are having their culture forceably erradicated and medical population control forced on them, and intentional han population being moved into the region to make them into a population majority to take away any regional political or social influence the Uigers might have? Absolutely.
Why should anyone give a damn what you think?
why should anyone post a comment?
It’s times like these when I wish I could just block an instance that isn’t defederated from mine.
You could just go back to Reddit; then you’ll be nice and insulated from opposing views
I highly recommend you do that, rather than looking at anything that disagrees and asking "if my government lied to me about genocide in Palestine, the Gulf of Tonkin, and Vietnam war, what else may they be lying about, and why?”
Most people aren’t denying the genocide in Palestine and many other atrocities committed by the western nations. We’re just sick and tired of the people who deny the wrongdoings of China.
Your instance banned my blahaj account for talking about genocidesmany’s complicity in the pissraeli crimes. That’s genocide denial. Sit back down.
I’m sitting just fine, thank you very much. Not a single person I have met in my surroundings denies the fucking genocide going on in Palestine.
I just gave you an example. But yes except for all those pesky counterexamples you are correct…
🙈🙉
The people telling you about these alleged “wrongdoings of China” absolutely do deny the Palestinian genocide and many western atrocities beside
Yes, sure. All of them. Of course. You know everything.
Sure. It’s not like you bother to check
You can, it’s in the settings. Being able to block all users from an instance is also an upcoming change.
