Yup, it’s an issue that goes both ways. Israel has historically used the “antisemite” label as a shield for any criticism. And that has all recently come to a head, where any valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes is treated the same as if you’re a neo-nazi. You can criticize Israel’s actions without stooping to antisemitism. But that won’t stop Israel (and Israel’s supporters) from labeling you an antisemite anyways.
It’s the same strategy that conservatives have used with things like Critical Race Theory. They work to undefine the term, so anything they don’t like can be labeled as such. Don’t like a classroom lesson? Label it CRT. Since conservatives have been taught to hate CRT, they’ll hate that lesson. Even if the lesson has nothing to do with CRT, that doesn’t matter because the conservative voters have already made up their minds about whether or not they’re against it. Antisemitism has become an undefined term for Israel’s supporters, where anyone they don’t like can simply be labeled an antisemite.
The way israels been acting the last 3 months or so, (and also the 30 years prior) I think one could be forgiven for becoming more antisemitic. I mean, people very justly held heavy prejudice against Germans in the late 1940s and 1950s/60s, even though most obviously weren’t Nazis. Why exactly are Israeli Jews different?
It’s a tough needle to thread, because there is both a lot of antisemitism and a lot of opposition to genocide that is not motivated by antisemitism. Any support for Palestinians is joined by a chorus of calls to end the existence of Israel entirely, something that would require killing a lot of Jewish people. So it’s difficult to untangle the legitimate criticism from the antisemitism.
So I don’t disagree with you, but I also understand why people are quick to slap labels on critics.
Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
I removed it, thinking that I had phrased it indelicately. The main point of the comment was a link to the Deir Yassin massacre, and maybe I’ll just leave it at that.
Well, at least absent a secular awakening in the middle east. And that is the real issue here in my view, and I’m not sure why so many people seem to be giving a pass to the extremist elephant in the room here.
There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
We already saw on October 7th what ordinary Palestinians would do to Jews if given the opportunity.
If the IDF hadn’t (belatedly) put a stop to them, they’d have carried on raping and killing until every last Jew in Israel was dead.
The only hope is that, after this war is over, a comprehensive Denazification programme is implemented in Gaza and the West Bank as well as a Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Gaza, just like with Nazi Germany. The antisemitism is too deep-seated, widespread, and fundamental to contemporary Palestinian identity to go away by itself.
Can you be any more disingenuous? Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. Israel does not represent all Jews. And yes October 7th was not good. But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
No, not all, just almost all. 72% endorse the October 7th Holocaust. Support in the West Bank for Hamas has tripled since that date – 52% of Gazans and 85% of West Bank residents support Hamas’ actions in the war. Reuters.
That’s why a Denazification process of Palestinian territories is necessary. Antisemitism is almost hardwired into them, from school textbooks to television, and it needs to be deprogrammed.
And yes October 7th was not good.
Jaw-dropping understatement. Have you seen what they did? It wasn’t just “not good”, it’s one of the most profoundly evil, cruel and barbaric atrocities of the modern era which.
But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
I’m very familiar with the history of Israel and Palestine. This war was spurred by October 7th. How many of those thousands were terrorists? Not all, of course, but Israel doesn’t just get off on killing innocent people. Hamas have had total control since Israel left Gaza in 2005, removed all their settlements, and gave them elections. What happened? They voted for Hamas, trashed the place, and spent all of the international aid money on weapons to kill Jews with not a single bomb shelter for their own citizens.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
The idea that Hamas and Israel are remotely comparable is contemptuous.
You think that might be because of the genocide Israel is perpetrating? I know you’d never admit that. But that’s the reason. And I don’t necessarily blame them. When you have two monsters. You tend to side with the lesser of the two. Really ironic calling Hamas the lesser of two monsters. But it’s true. Despite all the people they killed on October 7th, the number of people the IDF and Israel has killed before and since absolutely dwarf it. It’s exponentially more. Neither one is good. Israel is worse.
There are videos of Palestinian children doing a school play about slaughtering Israelis. And these ffers pretend that you’ve got innocents all around.
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. Not one settler, not one Israeli police station or IDF base. They had an election, and elected Hamas.
Funnily enough, you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
>you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
no, they’re not. how could Israel cut power and water to Gaza unless they controlled it?
Gaza has been under defacto Israeli control, even according to the Israeli supreme court, they control everything that gets in or out (yes even on the Egyptian crossing and a complete naval blockade), one of the big reasons Hamas exists is aid given to them by the Netanyahu government literally getting rid of secular oppositional groups and working with Hamas over the PA.
there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
The history of this region proves this to not be the case though. Jews have mostly been chased out of the region a few times with many dead left in the wake.
Jews did not live peacefully before the British mandate ended, there’s a long list of pogroms and assaults leading to many dead in the hundreds of years leading up to the UN establishment of the state.
It would be great if they could live peacefully but history shows that’s a risk they can’t take.
Fuck that. Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist. Anyone who associates that fascist state to Jewishness is the true antisemite
Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist.
This is antisemitism on two counts.
The reason is because you are singling out the only Jewish state as being uniquely lacking legitimacy as a state, and therefore Jews as the only people on this planet who don’t have the right of self-determination. Antizionism would be to call for the destruction of Israel, which is also antisemitic.
Comparing the only Jewish state to the very regime which murdered more than 6,000,000 Jews is an antisemitic comparison and designed to hurt Jews.
by your logic, disagreeing with any form of theocracy/ethnostate is hate towards the religious/ethnic groups
also, previously being the victims don’t change the ability to be the perpetrator later on.
but it’s good to know that anti-Nazi was just racism against Germans, and that historically victimized groups have cart blanch to commit genocide (please ignore the whole justification the Nazis had where they perceived themselves as some form of victims)
Israel isn’t a synonym for “Jew”, then again I wouldn’t take an organization’s claim on this if they assisted Israel in defrauding actual holocaust survivors of the reparation payments they are/were due, instead funneling it into “the proper jews”
I would guess : ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination. Any other state like that would be highly suspect. I think if Russia annexed Ukraine and then walled them in and controlled their electricity, food and everyday freedom, then that would count.
All that said, while I think the state of Israel should never have been created in the first place, I absolutely do not agree on the idea of removing the existing state. That would be to visit upon the people of Israel the same horror they visited on the Palestinians. You can’t deplore Israel’s genocidal behavior then wish the same for them
ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination.
Gaza isn’t part of Israel and Gazans are not Israeli citizens
I absolutely think states can improve their legitimacy. Israel could work with Palestine in good faith toward a two state solution. There’s always a path forward. See south africa, northern Ireland, Germany in the cold war etc
And yet you see the celebration of support for someone saying that “Israel has no right to exist.” Although there are some people who believe all national boarders should be abolished, somehow I don’t think that’s what the poster intended. Calling for the destruction of an entire nation of people sounds pretty bigoted to me. If it’s not anti-semitism, then we’re just splitting hairs. It makes it hard to speak out against the actions of Israel alongside people who are calling for Jewish genocide and being cheered on by those around them.
There is no possible world in which the disestablishment of the state of Israel does not lead to the deaths of millions of Jews. If you want to advocate for the abolition of Israel, you need to accept that and own the consequences.
No. But look if you want to be hysterical and put words in people’s mouths you do you. But you’ll have to excuse me if I bow out of the conversation. I’m happy to answer for my own words but not those others imagine
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
Sadly, even that is usually too much to ask for, as evidenced by your apparently good faith post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of assuming that you can’t argue that genocide of Palestinians is a bad thing without people agreeing with you by arguing that genocide of Israeli people would be super neat.
Of course, claiming that what other people say apart from agreeing with you that Palestinians shouldn’t be murdered is the responsibility of you for some reason is in itself an association fallacy.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Anyway: NO it’s NOT difficult to defend Palestinians without being antisemitic and benignly doing so does NOT make you responsible for antisemites agreeing with what you’re saying and then adding a lot that you did NOT say.
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
How would you know? That’s really my point. Antisemites are using this moment to inject their bigotey into the political discussion.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Case in point. I’ve called what Israel has been foing a genocide from the beginning. I think Netanyahu has committed crimes against humanity and should be deposed.
I also think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas, and a right to prosecute and root out terrorists.
For this, I have been called a bigot from both sides. And I completely understand, because you don’t know if I’m a secret bigot trying to sound reasonable.
I’m not at all suggesting that it makes me responsible for the statements of bigots, nor am I suggesting that anyone else should feel guilty by association as ling as they are challenging the bigotry. If you march shoulder to shoulder with them then yes you are guilty by association. If you tap into their hatred to achieve your political goals, however benign your goals are, you are guilty by association.
And that’s the hard part. I’m not suggesting it’s hard not to be a bigot. It’s hard to tell who is who from the sidelines.
If you see a beaten up homeless person in the street and they keep screaming something about “I’m gonna take over the united States government”, the threat is basically idle and has to be taken in the context of what power he has, as a homeless perspn, as compared to a state like the US. Israel has all the power and is in no kind of substantial danger from Hamas or anyone else. It can erradiacte the entire place easily. Palestine is the homeless person screaming how he wants to replace biden while in fact he is beaten to the ground and survives on scrapes of food.
Hamas has fired more than 12,000 rockets at Israel since October 7th and continues to fire hundreds more every day. The only reason they haven’t killed more people is because Israel has invested in the Iron Dome air defense system.
You’re also forgetting that on October 7th they raped and slaughtered and burned their way through every Jew they could get their hands on, men, women and children, killing more than 1,300 in the process. The only reason they didn’t carry on their slaughter was because the ‘evil’ IDF stopped them.
The ability to defend is part of the power we are speaking of though. That’s like saying Israel doesn’t have power because if it didn’t have power it wouldn’t have power. The point stands that because of this ability of defense and superior security, Hamas doesn’t do much damage. The same cannot be said of the other side. We are not arguing about Hamas being evil or not, we are arguing about how much damage can they make given the power of Israel. The threat is not existential bu any means.
I’ll be sure not to concern myself with the rockets Hamas continues to fire at Israeli neighborhoods because those people shouldn’t be concerned given the power imbalance is so stark. I’m confident they’ll understand.
I don’t disagree with you that Israel has far more power and ability to influence things than anyone in Palestine does, but it’s disingenuous to portray Hamas as a harmless homeless person ranting about the government when they are often causing injury and sometimes death to people who certainly weren’t within earshot to hear the ranting in the first place.
I don’t have an answer for this situation, but Israel has an obligation to protect their citizens. That shouldn’t come at the expense of innocent Palestinian civilians, though. Everything about this conflict sucks, because there’s absolutely no good actors involved.
I never said Hamas is harmless. I merely said that the extent of their harm is so limited. It took a security nightmare for Hamas to actually do any harm, and this was taken as such a huge unexpected tragedy. Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragedy but no one is surprised that Israel can push a few bottons and kill thousands of Palestinians so easily. Israel can do in a single day what Hamas would plan for months, or even years. All of this and Israel is good at weaponizing these idle threats of “exterminating Israel”. The rockets that Hamas launches barely scratch few people here and there, but it’s always so unexpected that you hear about 1 Isreaeli that died while 200 Palestinians is just a routine occurrence. It’s a tragedy on both sides as you say, but it is not on the same level.
The rockets that Hamas launches barely harm anyone because Israel has invested a ludicrous amount of public funds into anti-rocket defenses. If those defenses were to go down, you’d see the death tolls skyrocket.
You have no idea of the extent of Hamas. There were equally stupid comments about the PLO in the 70s while they hijacked planes. The common thread here is that middle eastern countries fund and engage in terrorism while also promoting the same terrorist leadership and orgs as legitimate political representatives.
Here is a thought. Set a 60 second timer, see how fast you can reach a shelter within that timer. Now imagine that at the end of the timer rockets may or may not strike your home or your family’s home. Are okay with that? Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s what you’re calling an “idle threat” that Israelis are presented with constantly.
Read the comment that I’m replying to. The idea that there’s a threat to the state of Israel in its entirety is a fantasy. It’s basically used to have Israel do anything with immunity. Israel can eradicate the region if it wants to, Hamas does few harms here and there. Israel kills thousands and thousands and Hamas takes years to do any damage and it gets talked about forever. You talk about 60 second timers and shelters, Palestinians have no timers and no shelters just people and children dying left and right. There’s certainty antisemitism on that side but there are also some anti Arabic sentiments. Haven’t you seen the Israelis that shout “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” and how they are gonna murder every single Arab they can find? There are videos of this way before any Hamas attacks.
This comment is so oblivious to the actual situation and is so full of lies that’s its not worth addressing. Clearly you value some lives more than others and enforce that belief with lies.
Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s more warning than Americans get when some rando decides to shoot up a shopping mall…or a school…or a sports stadium…or the highway on the commute to work. As if no one else in the world is subject to that kind of threat…
There is no government on earth the US would allow to exist if it regularly sent terrorists into schools, sports stadiums, or highways on the commute to work.
It’s not difficult at all. One is criticising government policies and extremists while the other is just bigotry using criticism of an entire people for their government policies and extremists.
The meme is you can’t do any such thing without being labelled antisemitic
Yup, it’s an issue that goes both ways. Israel has historically used the “antisemite” label as a shield for any criticism. And that has all recently come to a head, where any valid criticism of their literal fucking war crimes is treated the same as if you’re a neo-nazi. You can criticize Israel’s actions without stooping to antisemitism. But that won’t stop Israel (and Israel’s supporters) from labeling you an antisemite anyways.
It’s the same strategy that conservatives have used with things like Critical Race Theory. They work to undefine the term, so anything they don’t like can be labeled as such. Don’t like a classroom lesson? Label it CRT. Since conservatives have been taught to hate CRT, they’ll hate that lesson. Even if the lesson has nothing to do with CRT, that doesn’t matter because the conservative voters have already made up their minds about whether or not they’re against it. Antisemitism has become an undefined term for Israel’s supporters, where anyone they don’t like can simply be labeled an antisemite.
Yuo. Conservatives di this all the time. See: woke, politically correct, commie They use terms as cudgels without concern for meaning
they pride themselves on not being able to even define what woke, CRT etc are in their own words.
chuds.
The way israels been acting the last 3 months or so, (and also the 30 years prior) I think one could be forgiven for becoming more antisemitic. I mean, people very justly held heavy prejudice against Germans in the late 1940s and 1950s/60s, even though most obviously weren’t Nazis. Why exactly are Israeli Jews different?
Sir, why do you work for the genocide of the Jewish race? Have you no shame, sir? Have you no decency?
/s
It’s a tough needle to thread, because there is both a lot of antisemitism and a lot of opposition to genocide that is not motivated by antisemitism. Any support for Palestinians is joined by a chorus of calls to end the existence of Israel entirely, something that would require killing a lot of Jewish people. So it’s difficult to untangle the legitimate criticism from the antisemitism.
So I don’t disagree with you, but I also understand why people are quick to slap labels on critics.
Israel is not “Jewish people”. Israel “could” end without a single Jew dying. Also, Jews lived there when it was Palestine. I dunno did they die when it became Israel? How are you arriving at the end of a concept being mass murder?
I think if Israel stopped trying to run itself as an ethnostate they’d be fine. I think there’s an argument that the “concept” of what currently constitutes Israel may be too tainted to realistically save. Many unwilling to admit fault, apologize, and return what was stolen. And many unwilling to forgive them for doing it. It would take real concession and change. Something those in charge don’t want. So the people both Israeli and Palestinian will continue to suffer for the gains of wealthy genocidal bigots.
Many Palestinians were killed or died in the transition when Israel was established.
I agree with you that Israel needs to change, and that they aren’t going to change unless they are forced to change. But the Jewish people living in Israel will not leave peacefully. To “end” Israel is to kill a lot of Jewish people living there.
And the antisemites are counting on everyone making a distinction between the two.
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I can’t seem to find this comment on your user page or anywhere else on lemmy.world
I removed it, thinking that I had phrased it indelicately. The main point of the comment was a link to the Deir Yassin massacre, and maybe I’ll just leave it at that.
There’s no scenario, in any possible world, in which the ‘abolition’ of Israel doesn’t result in the deaths of millions of Jews.
Well, at least absent a secular awakening in the middle east. And that is the real issue here in my view, and I’m not sure why so many people seem to be giving a pass to the extremist elephant in the room here.
There is a difference between possible and likely. And you my friend are misrepresenting the two. It is 100% possible. But it also is unlikely because of all the genocidal ethno statists.
We already saw on October 7th what ordinary Palestinians would do to Jews if given the opportunity.
If the IDF hadn’t (belatedly) put a stop to them, they’d have carried on raping and killing until every last Jew in Israel was dead.
The only hope is that, after this war is over, a comprehensive Denazification programme is implemented in Gaza and the West Bank as well as a Marshall Plan for the reconstruction of Gaza, just like with Nazi Germany. The antisemitism is too deep-seated, widespread, and fundamental to contemporary Palestinian identity to go away by itself.
Can you be any more disingenuous? Hamas does not represent all of Palestinians. Israel does not represent all Jews. And yes October 7th was not good. But it’s awful telling that your timeline of atrocity starts there. And not the thousands upon thousands that were murdered by IDF and Israeli forces before that.
Neither group is good. Neither group is innocent. But Israel really needs to stop acting like a victim. It’s not believable.
No, not all, just almost all. 72% endorse the October 7th Holocaust. Support in the West Bank for Hamas has tripled since that date – 52% of Gazans and 85% of West Bank residents support Hamas’ actions in the war. Reuters.
That’s why a Denazification process of Palestinian territories is necessary. Antisemitism is almost hardwired into them, from school textbooks to television, and it needs to be deprogrammed.
Jaw-dropping understatement. Have you seen what they did? It wasn’t just “not good”, it’s one of the most profoundly evil, cruel and barbaric atrocities of the modern era which.
I’m very familiar with the history of Israel and Palestine. This war was spurred by October 7th. How many of those thousands were terrorists? Not all, of course, but Israel doesn’t just get off on killing innocent people. Hamas have had total control since Israel left Gaza in 2005, removed all their settlements, and gave them elections. What happened? They voted for Hamas, trashed the place, and spent all of the international aid money on weapons to kill Jews with not a single bomb shelter for their own citizens.
The idea that Hamas and Israel are remotely comparable is contemptuous.
You think that might be because of the genocide Israel is perpetrating? I know you’d never admit that. But that’s the reason. And I don’t necessarily blame them. When you have two monsters. You tend to side with the lesser of the two. Really ironic calling Hamas the lesser of two monsters. But it’s true. Despite all the people they killed on October 7th, the number of people the IDF and Israel has killed before and since absolutely dwarf it. It’s exponentially more. Neither one is good. Israel is worse.
There are videos of Palestinian children doing a school play about slaughtering Israelis. And these ffers pretend that you’ve got innocents all around.
Don’t worry, I’m sure a few more Jew-haters will be over in a minute to tell you you’re wrong.
no oct. 7th was Hamas, the 70-year-long occupation and pogroms in the west bank, is what all Jews would do…
oh wait, I don’t follow fascist logic
Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005. Not one settler, not one Israeli police station or IDF base. They had an election, and elected Hamas.
Funnily enough, you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
>you are in fact following Fascist logic by repeating Hitler’s theory that Jews, even when they’re absent, in fact control others from behind the scenes in dark hallways.
no, they’re not. how could Israel cut power and water to Gaza unless they controlled it?
Gaza has been under defacto Israeli control, even according to the Israeli supreme court, they control everything that gets in or out (yes even on the Egyptian crossing and a complete naval blockade), one of the big reasons Hamas exists is aid given to them by the Netanyahu government literally getting rid of secular oppositional groups and working with Hamas over the PA.
funnily enough, Bibi himself has spouted the idea that the Nazis were puppeted by the Palestinians into doing the holocaust.
>Gaza hasn’t been occupied since 2005.
except all the military incursions and I’d checkpoints on the border
there are many worlds where the abolition of Israel wouldn’t result in the deaths of Jewish people, unless you swallow the fascist dichotomy of “Israel is the only safe place for Jews” and “Israel is inherently in danger, due to group X”
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The history of this region proves this to not be the case though. Jews have mostly been chased out of the region a few times with many dead left in the wake.
Jews did not live peacefully before the British mandate ended, there’s a long list of pogroms and assaults leading to many dead in the hundreds of years leading up to the UN establishment of the state.
It would be great if they could live peacefully but history shows that’s a risk they can’t take.
Fuck that. Anti Zionism isn’t antisemitism. Israel is a fascist state with no right to exist. Anyone who associates that fascist state to Jewishness is the true antisemite
Https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=fjUGC8g4GOE&pp=ygUPbWFzayBvZmYgZnV0dXJl
Eight in ten British Jews consider themselves to be a Zionist. Only six percent do not.
This is antisemitism on two counts.
by your logic, disagreeing with any form of theocracy/ethnostate is hate towards the religious/ethnic groups also, previously being the victims don’t change the ability to be the perpetrator later on.
but it’s good to know that anti-Nazi was just racism against Germans, and that historically victimized groups have cart blanch to commit genocide (please ignore the whole justification the Nazis had where they perceived themselves as some form of victims)
Even in the same comment you still can’t help but make antisemitic comparisons between Israeli Jews and Hitler! This is beyond parody
that’s not antisemitic
Comparing Israel to Hitler or Nazi Germany is antisemitic. Glad to clear that up for you.
https://www.holocaustremembrance.com/resources/working-definitions-charters/working-definition-antisemitism
no, it’s not
Israel isn’t a synonym for “Jew”, then again I wouldn’t take an organization’s claim on this if they assisted Israel in defrauding actual holocaust survivors of the reparation payments they are/were due, instead funneling it into “the proper jews”
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Which other nations have no right to exist? Or is it just Israel?
I would guess : ones that disposess the inhabitants for their own gain and then corral the remainders in open air prisons while stripping them of their rights of self determination. Any other state like that would be highly suspect. I think if Russia annexed Ukraine and then walled them in and controlled their electricity, food and everyday freedom, then that would count. All that said, while I think the state of Israel should never have been created in the first place, I absolutely do not agree on the idea of removing the existing state. That would be to visit upon the people of Israel the same horror they visited on the Palestinians. You can’t deplore Israel’s genocidal behavior then wish the same for them
Gaza isn’t part of Israel and Gazans are not Israeli citizens
It’s an occupied territory.
Agreed?
this only makes it worse, as Israel has defeacto control over the region, same thing with the west bank.
Is it possible to regain legitimacy after doing that, or will the state always be illegitimate?
And how geographically widespread does it have to be?
Because that sounds an awful lot like the US’s historical genocide of the Native Americans and China’s current genocide of the Uyghurs.
I absolutely think states can improve their legitimacy. Israel could work with Palestine in good faith toward a two state solution. There’s always a path forward. See south africa, northern Ireland, Germany in the cold war etc
And yet you see the celebration of support for someone saying that “Israel has no right to exist.” Although there are some people who believe all national boarders should be abolished, somehow I don’t think that’s what the poster intended. Calling for the destruction of an entire nation of people sounds pretty bigoted to me. If it’s not anti-semitism, then we’re just splitting hairs. It makes it hard to speak out against the actions of Israel alongside people who are calling for Jewish genocide and being cheered on by those around them.
Calling for Israel to not exist does not imply Genocide, it implies disestablishment of a political body.
There is no possible world in which the disestablishment of the state of Israel does not lead to the deaths of millions of Jews. If you want to advocate for the abolition of Israel, you need to accept that and own the consequences.
No. But look if you want to be hysterical and put words in people’s mouths you do you. But you’ll have to excuse me if I bow out of the conversation. I’m happy to answer for my own words but not those others imagine
all of them probably, nations kind of suck
tish isn’t going to sleep with you.
It really isn’t as long as both parties are arguing in good faith and refraining from strawman arguments or other logical fallacies.
Sadly, even that is usually too much to ask for, as evidenced by your apparently good faith post hoc ergo propter hoc fallacy of assuming that you can’t argue that genocide of Palestinians is a bad thing without people agreeing with you by arguing that genocide of Israeli people would be super neat.
Of course, claiming that what other people say apart from agreeing with you that Palestinians shouldn’t be murdered is the responsibility of you for some reason is in itself an association fallacy.
Come to think of it, ARE you arguing in good faith or are you just taking this chance to apply guilt by association without appearing to? 🤔
Anyway: NO it’s NOT difficult to defend Palestinians without being antisemitic and benignly doing so does NOT make you responsible for antisemites agreeing with what you’re saying and then adding a lot that you did NOT say.
How would you know? That’s really my point. Antisemites are using this moment to inject their bigotey into the political discussion.
Case in point. I’ve called what Israel has been foing a genocide from the beginning. I think Netanyahu has committed crimes against humanity and should be deposed.
I also think Israel has a right to defend itself from Hamas, and a right to prosecute and root out terrorists.
For this, I have been called a bigot from both sides. And I completely understand, because you don’t know if I’m a secret bigot trying to sound reasonable.
I’m not at all suggesting that it makes me responsible for the statements of bigots, nor am I suggesting that anyone else should feel guilty by association as ling as they are challenging the bigotry. If you march shoulder to shoulder with them then yes you are guilty by association. If you tap into their hatred to achieve your political goals, however benign your goals are, you are guilty by association.
And that’s the hard part. I’m not suggesting it’s hard not to be a bigot. It’s hard to tell who is who from the sidelines.
Ok, that’s true and fair. Glad to meet someone reasonable 😁
If you see a beaten up homeless person in the street and they keep screaming something about “I’m gonna take over the united States government”, the threat is basically idle and has to be taken in the context of what power he has, as a homeless perspn, as compared to a state like the US. Israel has all the power and is in no kind of substantial danger from Hamas or anyone else. It can erradiacte the entire place easily. Palestine is the homeless person screaming how he wants to replace biden while in fact he is beaten to the ground and survives on scrapes of food.
Hamas has fired more than 12,000 rockets at Israel since October 7th and continues to fire hundreds more every day. The only reason they haven’t killed more people is because Israel has invested in the Iron Dome air defense system.
You’re also forgetting that on October 7th they raped and slaughtered and burned their way through every Jew they could get their hands on, men, women and children, killing more than 1,300 in the process. The only reason they didn’t carry on their slaughter was because the ‘evil’ IDF stopped them.
The ability to defend is part of the power we are speaking of though. That’s like saying Israel doesn’t have power because if it didn’t have power it wouldn’t have power. The point stands that because of this ability of defense and superior security, Hamas doesn’t do much damage. The same cannot be said of the other side. We are not arguing about Hamas being evil or not, we are arguing about how much damage can they make given the power of Israel. The threat is not existential bu any means.
Tell that to the 1,300 dead Jews, tortured, gunned down, burned alive, gang-raped, in the worst act of Jew-slaughter since the Holocaust.
If you’re reducing this down to sheer numbers, you don’t understand this conflict.
Removed by mod
Oh great, so now we’ve got a Holocaust denier here. Great. What a great place Lemmy is for Jews.
You’re blocked. I don’t talk to Holocaust deniers.
this isn’t Holocaust denial
>You’re blocked.
thank god
I’ll be sure not to concern myself with the rockets Hamas continues to fire at Israeli neighborhoods because those people shouldn’t be concerned given the power imbalance is so stark. I’m confident they’ll understand.
I don’t disagree with you that Israel has far more power and ability to influence things than anyone in Palestine does, but it’s disingenuous to portray Hamas as a harmless homeless person ranting about the government when they are often causing injury and sometimes death to people who certainly weren’t within earshot to hear the ranting in the first place.
I don’t have an answer for this situation, but Israel has an obligation to protect their citizens. That shouldn’t come at the expense of innocent Palestinian civilians, though. Everything about this conflict sucks, because there’s absolutely no good actors involved.
I never said Hamas is harmless. I merely said that the extent of their harm is so limited. It took a security nightmare for Hamas to actually do any harm, and this was taken as such a huge unexpected tragedy. Don’t get me wrong, it is a tragedy but no one is surprised that Israel can push a few bottons and kill thousands of Palestinians so easily. Israel can do in a single day what Hamas would plan for months, or even years. All of this and Israel is good at weaponizing these idle threats of “exterminating Israel”. The rockets that Hamas launches barely scratch few people here and there, but it’s always so unexpected that you hear about 1 Isreaeli that died while 200 Palestinians is just a routine occurrence. It’s a tragedy on both sides as you say, but it is not on the same level.
The rockets that Hamas launches barely harm anyone because Israel has invested a ludicrous amount of public funds into anti-rocket defenses. If those defenses were to go down, you’d see the death tolls skyrocket.
You have no idea of the extent of Hamas. There were equally stupid comments about the PLO in the 70s while they hijacked planes. The common thread here is that middle eastern countries fund and engage in terrorism while also promoting the same terrorist leadership and orgs as legitimate political representatives.
Here is a thought. Set a 60 second timer, see how fast you can reach a shelter within that timer. Now imagine that at the end of the timer rockets may or may not strike your home or your family’s home. Are okay with that? Remember that 60 second timer can go off at any moment, including your commute to work.
That’s what you’re calling an “idle threat” that Israelis are presented with constantly.
Read the comment that I’m replying to. The idea that there’s a threat to the state of Israel in its entirety is a fantasy. It’s basically used to have Israel do anything with immunity. Israel can eradicate the region if it wants to, Hamas does few harms here and there. Israel kills thousands and thousands and Hamas takes years to do any damage and it gets talked about forever. You talk about 60 second timers and shelters, Palestinians have no timers and no shelters just people and children dying left and right. There’s certainty antisemitism on that side but there are also some anti Arabic sentiments. Haven’t you seen the Israelis that shout “the only good Arab is a dead Arab” and how they are gonna murder every single Arab they can find? There are videos of this way before any Hamas attacks.
This comment is so oblivious to the actual situation and is so full of lies that’s its not worth addressing. Clearly you value some lives more than others and enforce that belief with lies.
Which bit was a lie?
The bits that contradict their pro-genocide gaslighting, I bet.
Nearly thought you were intelligently giving a point of view of the Palestinian civilians currently under fire from their fascist neighbors.
That was a close one huh
Why, did someone in Gaza do something to Israel?
That’s more warning than Americans get when some rando decides to shoot up a shopping mall…or a school…or a sports stadium…or the highway on the commute to work. As if no one else in the world is subject to that kind of threat…
There is no government on earth the US would allow to exist if it regularly sent terrorists into schools, sports stadiums, or highways on the commute to work.
So yes, great analogy.
Lol.
It’s not difficult at all. One is criticising government policies and extremists while the other is just bigotry using criticism of an entire people for their government policies and extremists.
So how do you tell a critic’s motivations? How do you separate the two when they are chanting in the streets?
No! This is lemmy! Only one thing can be true at once. The entire world is zero sum, those are the rules, no take-backs.