- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
Pope Francis has formally approved allowing priests to bless same-sex couples, with a new document explaining a radical change in Vatican policy by insisting that people seeking God’s love and mercy shouldn’t be subject to “an exhaustive moral analysis” to receive it.
The document from the Vatican’s doctrine office, released Monday, elaborates on a letter Francis sent to two conservative cardinals that was published in October. In that preliminary response, Francis suggested such blessings could be offered under some circumstances if they didn’t confuse the ritual with the sacrament of marriage.
The new document repeats that rationale and elaborates on it, reaffirming that marriage is a lifelong sacrament between a man and a woman. And it stresses that blessings should not be conferred at the same time as a civil union, using set rituals or even with the clothing and gestures that belong in a wedding.
But it says requests for such blessings should not be denied full stop. It offers an extensive definition of the term “blessing” in Scripture to insist that people seeking a transcendent relationship with God and looking for his love and mercy should not be subject to “an exhaustive moral analysis” as a precondition for receiving it.
It’s not disingenious. By the official scriptures, a religious marriage is between a man and a woman. A change like the current one needs already to be accepted by the highest cardinals, that have been in history notoriously fundamentalist.
A religious marriage is still not allowed. But the receiving of an “informal” blessing for future happiness and prosperity now is.
This is a necessary step to slowly allow more, that will come with the slow redefining and adaptation to modern times of the scriptures.
people don’t know about Vatican 2 where they finally change mass from Latin to whatever the local language was in FUCKING 1962. I’ve been to Latin masses. I thought it was cool, but I’m glad they switched. My grandpa complained the church went pop with Vatican 2.
Vatican 2: The Ecumenicalling
The scriptures don’t adapt, only their interpretation.
I think I covered this with “redefining”
That’s untrue, scriptures have been adapted many many times. There’s no one agreed upon definition of what the Bible even is, varying significantly between different sects of Christianity, and even more as we broaden to other Abrahamic religions. There’s near endless variations of the different texts. Translation, copying, and selection of which texts to include in a scripture is inevitably bound up in interpretations, they’re inseparable. New ideas, biases, agendas, and shifts in meaning will work their way into the translation or copying of older texts or what sources to derive the translations from. Words don’t stay the same over time in any language and are constantly shifting in meanings.
Now some religious people may say, God inspires the people who select what religious texts to use, their copying, and their translations, to ensure perfect unchanging meaning over time. But outside of invoking miracles this is an impossibility. But this is what people who take a literal interpretation of the Bible believe.
Barring miracles though, start with development and history section below if interested, but there’s countless opportunities for the scriptures to have changed, and they are still changing. There’s no way they couldn’t, language itself wouldn’t let it stay static no matter how much effort is put in to it, not even thinking of all the other factors and agendas that have changed them or what they even consist of many times over thousands of years. There’s no one definitive Bible that sprang fully formed out of some vacuum, and even if that somehow occured it’d have to drift overtime with language itself.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bible
Makes you wonder why God has the power to inspire people to correct issues but not the power to stop issues to begin with. Wouldn’t an all knowing being know the exact problems his human pets would have?
We’re using the word “adapted” in different ways. There may be no authoritative bible text but texts which are considered to be bibles don’t change in response to their environment. They may be rewritten or translated but the originals are still the originals.
No I’m using it the same way. What I’m saying is there is no such thing as an “original” Bible text, and even if there was people don’t all agree what those texts should be or which versions of those texts to begin from. And even if they did there’d be no way to perfectly preserve their meaning over the many of thousands of years they developed. And the re interpretations at every step along the way will influence how they get passed down and rewritten. Our current versions of all the many different religious texts are all a part of a long process of evolution, some even with common ancestors. Meanings, connotations, words, passages, entire books, and all sorts of things change at every step for many different reasons. They didn’t just appear suddenly out of nowhere. Many started even as an oral tradition.
I never said there was. And the existence of more than one accepted scripture doesn’t contradict what I said. Each of those scriptures will not adapt to its environment.
Again, we’re talking about different things. You’re talking about long periods of time where human civilisation develops, where scriptures are translated, reinterpreted, etc. into new scriptures. I’m saying that the King James Bible of the 1950s was the same King James Bible of the 1970s and didn’t adapt in response to the civil rights movement of the 1960s.
The king James Bible of 1611? The version specifically made to emphasize the divine rights and absolute authority of kings? Sure sounds a lot like the text adapting to the times to me. And do you understand the meanings and context of English from the 17th century? The answer is no, no one does perfectly, the meaning of that text to you will be different to someone reading in the 17th century than to you because the language has changed. Experts could make surmises based on other writings at the time. Ultimately though newer versions will need to be made, that will inevitably be bound up in the current religious interpretations and linguistics background of the one doing that. The texts change in response to our interpretation over time, they don’t sit still, it’s impossible. They are all an ongoing evolution that has been and is still happening.
So not the same scriptures then.
New texts being created is not the same thing as changing texts. People don’t go around with a pen and update pages.
They do change, otherwise we’d have the exact same Bible as we did a thousand years ago which isn’t the case. And if you read a Bible from a thousand years ago, it no longer means the same thing as it did to someone from a thousand years ago. If the hill you want to die on is, the shape of the letters on the page of a particular version’s pages stay the same over time. Then fine. But a scripture is made of language which has to change over time. So for any practical purposes the texts are changing over time. Take any cursory examination at the history of religious texts including the Bible and you’ll see morphing over time for tons of different reasons. Politics often involved! And our current interpretations, linguistics, and cultural understandings and contexts will absolutely inform how the Bible and any religious text (or any text for that matter) continues to change over time, just as it always has.
Ranvier is completely correct. There is no definite version of the bible even if you went back to the original languages. If you add up all the text variations that are known as of today the number exceeds the number of total words in the NT. And when you add in translation issues the problem is endless. Plus all the stuff that looks like it was never in there originally, like the endings of Mark or the Adultress in John. The Bible is like a much dumber version of Wikipedia.
I don’t know if you’re a Catholic or not, I just want to say more generally - I don’t see how any Catholic, including the pope, has the right to opine on the finer points of official scriptures while priests are raping children and the church covers it up.
The Pope is not a global censuring big brother. You have to point to your state/country’s Christian representation if it has any power in the media or politics.
You might also want to generalize that a priest of any religion can be problematic.
Nobody should be raping children. Roman Catholic priests have done this, are doing this, and the Roman Catholic church has a long and ongoing history of covering it up. If the head of the Roman Catholic church fails to stop it, they’re blameworthy.
Something a pope could easily promise, but never will:
Any church that isn’t afraid of raking in money in envelopes, but is afraid of making a commitment like the above, is a problem, yep, I agree. There’s no excuse. Saying the pope doesn’t have the power to do this is mealymouthed and also, incorrect.
Bullshit. The Pope has been gaining control of the US. He already has Supreme Court.