With whites you definitely have a point, but it’s a little different when whites have at various times in history attempted to erase your culture in numerous ways, including outlawing your language, clothing, music, dance, martial arts, traditional healing systems, religious beliefs, hair styles, etc, while converting you to what they believe to be valid and acceptable.
That’s being proud of your culture though, not your race. Culture is something you willingly engage in, and you definitely have the right to be proud of it (and that includes Italian culture, Greek culture and all other types of white culture as well).
But race? Saying “I’m proud of being black” means nothing when American black people and African black people barely have anything in common that isn’t the color of their skin.
Culture is very much tied to race and where those people came from. It still happens now. It should be obvious without explanation. It’s not at all difficult to find stories about black students sent home from school because their hair is “not ok.”
True that. Candice Ownens is the perfect example of a racist POC disowning their entire culture to not be associated with anyone but white Republicans. She’s culturally white and it’s a choice.
It’s tied but it’s different. A lot of third+ generation immigrants have the same customs as locals, and you wouldn’t tell them apart if not for physical traits, for example.
It’s also weird how stuff that used to be shamed about turned to reasons of pride. We (as in, non-racist people) realized shaming people for their hair is stupid, why would being proud of it not be just as stupid?
It’s not weird at all. If one race has systematically tried to beat you down throughout history and convince you that your race and culture are inferior, there’s all the reason in the world to reclaim respect for all that your people almost lost, and tell that race to fuck off if they don’t like it, and be proud of it. Gay pride isn’t race based, but it’s definitely a similar thing from a different direction. It sounds like you need to spend significant time sitting and talking with people of cultures that have been through it.
It’s correct to demand equality and apologies for what happened in the past, but beyond it isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
I would love to talk more about this with people who are directly involved in it, but even then, races/sexualities are not a monolith and that person I spoke to might have a completely different opinion from the rest. Plus I feel like you need to be very intimate with someone to have that kind of talk, so it’s not easy at all. I also comment my opinions on the internet because it’s a simple way of finding people who disagree and might give you a different point of view.
isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
You still have plenty of time to talk to people and change your viewpoint.
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Sure, I didn’t think that’s what they mean, but that’s what it feels like. If it’s not the same as “being proud of your culture”, what’s the other difference?
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
But again, that’s culture. Isn’t it better to say you’re proud of what you do, instead of what you are?
I think I’ve said enough already. It feels like you’re just pushing an agenda instead of trying to understand. Which, oddly enough, is historically how some of all this came about to begin with.
That’s different though, the point of gay pride is recognising that your value in society and your person ought to be respected, against a larger imposing force or hivemind so to speak, just like black pride, etc, and valuing your open expression of pride, closeted queers could just as easily argue that being in the closet is about valuing your own person on an internal level rather than how others may expect you to express yourself - ie, you may value yourself in a way different from how society does. Just like how some sex workers view themselves as tools, not sex toys but rather as healers and value themselves as such, once you dig deep down on all this, you’ll realise that gay pride is as much a “reaction” of the person to society as being closeted would be, one is preferable to individualist cultures, the other is more conformist, either way you pick your poison.
People who unironically feel conflicted about being proud of overcoming or experiencing XYZ, e.g. taking a big dump or something as simple as eating an extra large McDonald’s double junior whopper, would like to dispute that pride is more often than not understanding that being ashamed of something is giving away your agency, by automatically saying, that was bad, the end, whereas being prideful at least gives you opportunity to reflect on the value of the experience itself rather than to simply paint it as inherently good or bad.
I always read black as “American black people”, and there there definitely is a shared culture, of having ancestors that were slaves and not knowing where in Africa they came from because the slavers didn’t care
That’s because their ancestors experienced a forced diaspora and slavery that was partially designed to destroy their sense of culture and identity. It’s a distinct group of people from Africans. Black is just how they choose to refer to themselves.
These sociological definitions aren’t always perfect. Strictly speaking, Musk is African, but he isn’t who you usually think of as part of that group.
This is the most obnoxious pedantry I’ve ever heard. Black Americans celebrate their old world origins just as much as Irish Americans celebrate theirs. They can’t be more specific to the tribe or country because that knowledge was fucking erased. Black is the culture, broadly speaking.
With whites you definitely have a point, but it’s a little different when whites have at various times in history attempted to erase your culture in numerous ways, including outlawing your language, clothing, music, dance, martial arts, traditional healing systems, religious beliefs, hair styles, etc, while converting you to what they believe to be valid and acceptable.
That’s being proud of your culture though, not your race. Culture is something you willingly engage in, and you definitely have the right to be proud of it (and that includes Italian culture, Greek culture and all other types of white culture as well).
But race? Saying “I’m proud of being black” means nothing when American black people and African black people barely have anything in common that isn’t the color of their skin.
Culture is very much tied to race and where those people came from. It still happens now. It should be obvious without explanation. It’s not at all difficult to find stories about black students sent home from school because their hair is “not ok.”
True that. Candice Ownens is the perfect example of a racist POC disowning their entire culture to not be associated with anyone but white Republicans. She’s culturally white and it’s a choice.
It’s tied but it’s different. A lot of third+ generation immigrants have the same customs as locals, and you wouldn’t tell them apart if not for physical traits, for example.
It’s also weird how stuff that used to be shamed about turned to reasons of pride. We (as in, non-racist people) realized shaming people for their hair is stupid, why would being proud of it not be just as stupid?
It’s not weird at all. If one race has systematically tried to beat you down throughout history and convince you that your race and culture are inferior, there’s all the reason in the world to reclaim respect for all that your people almost lost, and tell that race to fuck off if they don’t like it, and be proud of it. Gay pride isn’t race based, but it’s definitely a similar thing from a different direction. It sounds like you need to spend significant time sitting and talking with people of cultures that have been through it.
It’s correct to demand equality and apologies for what happened in the past, but beyond it isn’t that just “pride” in being/having been discriminated?
I would love to talk more about this with people who are directly involved in it, but even then, races/sexualities are not a monolith and that person I spoke to might have a completely different opinion from the rest. Plus I feel like you need to be very intimate with someone to have that kind of talk, so it’s not easy at all. I also comment my opinions on the internet because it’s a simple way of finding people who disagree and might give you a different point of view.
No. I can’t imagine there’s a single person who has ever felt legitimately proud about being discriminated against in a manner you suggest.
Proud of continuing the traditions of one’s ancestors so they aren’t permanently lost to historic racism or diluted in the modern melting pot, via artistic expression, etc, yes.
You still have plenty of time to talk to people and change your viewpoint.
Sure, I didn’t think that’s what they mean, but that’s what it feels like. If it’s not the same as “being proud of your culture”, what’s the other difference?
But again, that’s culture. Isn’t it better to say you’re proud of what you do, instead of what you are?
I think I’ve said enough already. It feels like you’re just pushing an agenda instead of trying to understand. Which, oddly enough, is historically how some of all this came about to begin with.
That’s different though, the point of gay pride is recognising that your value in society and your person ought to be respected, against a larger imposing force or hivemind so to speak, just like black pride, etc, and valuing your open expression of pride, closeted queers could just as easily argue that being in the closet is about valuing your own person on an internal level rather than how others may expect you to express yourself - ie, you may value yourself in a way different from how society does. Just like how some sex workers view themselves as tools, not sex toys but rather as healers and value themselves as such, once you dig deep down on all this, you’ll realise that gay pride is as much a “reaction” of the person to society as being closeted would be, one is preferable to individualist cultures, the other is more conformist, either way you pick your poison.
Seriously, I said similar from a different direction, not the same.
Lying about who you are is not psychologically healthy and should not be praised or encouraged.
That’s not the point of the comment I made nor is it really a response that actually addresses the point I made, would you like to try again?
People who unironically feel conflicted about being proud of overcoming or experiencing XYZ, e.g. taking a big dump or something as simple as eating an extra large McDonald’s double junior whopper, would like to dispute that pride is more often than not understanding that being ashamed of something is giving away your agency, by automatically saying, that was bad, the end, whereas being prideful at least gives you opportunity to reflect on the value of the experience itself rather than to simply paint it as inherently good or bad.
Because racist people still exist and still control the narrative, that’s why. Pride is protection.
I always read black as “American black people”, and there there definitely is a shared culture, of having ancestors that were slaves and not knowing where in Africa they came from because the slavers didn’t care
That’s because their ancestors experienced a forced diaspora and slavery that was partially designed to destroy their sense of culture and identity. It’s a distinct group of people from Africans. Black is just how they choose to refer to themselves.
These sociological definitions aren’t always perfect. Strictly speaking, Musk is African, but he isn’t who you usually think of as part of that group.
This is the most obnoxious pedantry I’ve ever heard. Black Americans celebrate their old world origins just as much as Irish Americans celebrate theirs. They can’t be more specific to the tribe or country because that knowledge was fucking erased. Black is the culture, broadly speaking.