- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
- cross-posted to:
- [email protected]
You must log in or register to comment.
Before any of you sorry ass libs reiterate Nazi propaganda via the Holodomor in here, I would suggest you just look further down in the thread and see what your sorry ass loser lib friends got in response.
Nobody believes your bullshit here. You’re not going to convince anyone here.
Tf? I can barely eat 2000 Cal a day. How do people eat that much
Honestly though how the fuck do people eat 3500 calories a day, are you just eating all day long? I can barely force myself to break 2000.
I’m going to stick with the countless eye-witness reports and first hand experiences of older people who lived through it over the American lie machine pretty much any day of the week.
Big “I’m going with the constitution and the rule of law” energy
We should have a Jennifer Rubin emote. I would use it all the time
I’m sure the “constitution and rule of law” types are against the illegal dissolution of the Soviet Union. Right?
Sorry Padme. That’s just the rules based world order sweaty
FWIW, even though I think @[email protected] is probably right in her assessment that you won’t, it would genuinely be the coolest shit you ever did if you read the replies to your comment, accepted even some of the maelstrom of data provided that undermines what you said, and opened yourself up just the tiniest little bit to the pathway out of the propagandized worldview you’ve been blasted with your entire life.
Yeah. It’s a lot to go through and a lot more than I was expecting. I’m open to being wrong here, most of the people I’ve met don’t seem to indicate anything similar to the above, but that could still be broadly anecdotal. Certainly a lot to think about and read up on here, and I’m not anti communist at all, but I think that WWII alone is enough for me to be anti-Stalin and make me less likely to believe that his people were treated well. I could be wrong there too.
I’ll point out though that I’m not making an argument. It’s literally impossible to “undermine” someone’s experience unless they’re lying about it. And I’m more likely to believe someone about their experience over the numbers which describe what their experience should have been. I still see some humility in that, but I would understand if not everyone does
What experiences are you actually talking about? Because I will gladly take an hour out of my day just to fish for a few first-hand examples of people who lived in the USSR talking about how much better life was before its dissolution.
There’s a popular youtube channel called Bald and Bankrupt, and the guy who does it generally sucks, but almost universally whenever he talks to someone who actually lived in the USSR, they talk about how much better it was before its dissolution. There’s also statues and portraits of Stalin all over the dang place.
“Many old people like me lived better in the USSR” …later on in the video… “In the USSR it was better … [now] the poor people have to pay for their apartments, they don’t have enough for medicine, don’t have enough for housing fees”
Here is a woman who describes her time in the USSR as “living wonderfully” before restructuring.
Here is a woman who talks about how her community was cooperative right up until the USSR’s collapse. Later in the video another woman talks about being forced from her home overnight while the USSR was being picked apart in 1992.
“After the collapse of the Soviet Union, everything in Russia became dirty”
For the sake of covering “both sides”, I did find another clip while skimming of a woman talking about how her family was sent to Siberia by Stalin (as soon as she said this, I knew her family was probably very wealthy, which she confirmed immediately, lol). Her family wasn’t sent to a gulag, but rather to another village. Eventually they were allowed to return. If you’d like to know more about what the kulaks did to deserve being sent to another village, and you’re not aware already… well, that’s a whole other can of worms that frankly I don’t feel like getting into right now. But basically, by withholding the harvest of crops en masse from the people who needed them for the sake of their own profit, the kulaks - who were dissatisfied with communist redistribution of wealth (kulak means a person who is wealthy enough to own land and hire labor) - caused the deaths of many, many citizens of the USSR.
There are more examples of older folks speaking positively about the USSR, but that’s all I feel like combing through right now.
Anyway, I wanna go play video games now. I hope some of this was of actual interest to you, and helps you feel a little more open-minded. I appreciate you actually making the effort to confront your viewpoint, not many people make that step.
Publication Date: January 8, 1983
I actually agree with you that this is not that great of a source. It debunks the claim that the USSR starved its people in general but does not show the time of Stalin. There are of course many comrades here who can point to how Stalin didn’t starve the USSR either, but the point still stands.
If a communist state in 1980s didn’t starve their people then it follows that socialism without starvation is possible. The starvation argument isn’t done cause liberals care about victims - they don’t really - they care about denying the viability of socialist projects. When even the Soviet Union with all its falls was able to do achieve what the CIA did show, then this means the socialist project is viable and could work in various versions.
This is the real point here.
Nice job cherry picking some random CIA document! Btw, it’s from 1983, thirty years after Stalin died. You made an honest mistake, I’m sure.
Stalin used starvation as weapon quite effectively. 4-5 miillion died in the 1930s, mostly Ukrainians.
More Kahazkhs died in those famines than Ukrainians but nobody talks about that because the CIA hasn’t been funding Kazakh Nazis for the better part of a century
shhh they only just decided Ukrainians are human, they aren’t ready to extend that to Kazakhs
Stalin used starvation as weapon quite effectively.
The idea that Stalin intentionally committed genocide in Ukraine is literal Nazi propaganda that was in turn pushed by right-wing groups in the US. Great article on it here:
It may not be sheer coincidence that faminology took wing just after the OSI was commissioned in 1979. For here was a way to rehabilitate fascism- — to prove that Ukrainian collaborators were helpless victims, caught between the rock of Hitler and Stalin’s hard place. To wit, this bit of psycho-journalism from the 33 March 24 Washington Post, in a story on accused war criminal John “Ivan the Terrible” Demjanjuk: “The pivotal event in Demjanjuk’s childhood was the great famine of the early 1930s, conceived by Soviet dictator Joseph Stalin as a way of destroying the independent Ukrainian peasantry … Several members of [Demjanjuk’s] family died in the catastrophe.”
Coupled with the old nationalist canard of “Judeo-Bolshevism,” faminology could help justify anti-Semitism, collaboration, even genocide. An eye for an eye; a Nazi holocaust in return for a “Jewish famine.”
Just as the Nazis used the OUN for their own ends, so has Reagan exploited the famine, from his purple-prosed commemoration of “this callous act” to his backing of the Mace commission. Faced with failing fascist allies around the world, from Nicaragua to South Africa, the U.S. war lobby needs to boost anti-Communism as never before. Public enthusiasm to fight for the contras will not come easy. But if people could be convinced that Communism is worse than fascism; that Stalin was an insane monster, even worse than Hitler; that the seven million died in more unspeakable agony than the six million …. Well, we just might be set up for the next Gulf of Tonkin. One cannot appease an Evil Empire, after all.
The article is from 1988 by the way, in case you were wondering about the reference to the Contras.
Great excerpt! Thanks comrade!
If it’s all Reagan’s fault, why did this cherry-picked post say the Soviets were being well fed in 1983?
I mean, no one’s gonna post a 30 page paper from a social science journal in the memes comm.
If you’d like a more nuanced discussion, you’re welcome to read The Years of Hunger: Soviet Agriculture, 1931–1933 by Davies and Wheatcroft (arguably the most detailed scholarly study and account of the Soviet Famine) and discuss it with the site on the literature or askchapo comms.
You should take a look at this infographic. It answers all of your questions.
What a powerful argument, clearly 35 years later this article has pushed countless others to uncover the truth behind the Ukrainian famines.
Or, perhaps if the Holodomor is still recognized as a man-made famine, that this article’s author is mistaken.
So much for Stalin’s citizenry having enough to eat.
Computer, please google William Randolph Hearst and Goebbels
Did someone allege genocide?
Prisoners in the United States jumped from 120,284 in 1923 to 210,418 in 1933. (Source (p. 210))
Executions increased to 197, the highest number in US history, in 1935. (Source)
The U.S. forcibly deported one million of its own citizens to Mexico in the 1930s. Source
Since you’re probably using an intentionally ridiculous US estimate, I’ll use an intentionally ridiculous Russian estimate and say that seven million people died from the Great Depression. This Russian estimate uses the same intentionally ridiculous methodology of the U.S. one.
Put together, why isn’t this enough to declare that a genocide happened in the U.S.?
