It’s a “no true scotsman” but those aren’t leftists. Leftists don’t praise and try to emulate autocrats. Those are people pretending to be leftists who are trying to co-opt, radicalize, or confuse leftists.
Leftism by definition is opposed to authoritarians.
Some are pretending to be leftists. But some just have a Manichean view of the world that they can’t shake. Some people change labels when they convert from fundamentalist religion or blind nationalism, but don’t change the framework of their views.
No shit, I have seen people outright denying Houthi atrocities because “They wouldn’t do something like that!”
Because the Houthis are opposed to The Great Satan™, they’re automatically rewritten in these people’s minds to be at least acceptable in every facet of their existence.
Some are pretending to be leftists.
Says the liberal pretending to be a leftist.
What do they say that makes you think they’re more liberal than leftist?
Just trying to learn, not arguing or anything
Judging the means by which the colonized resists their colonizers is pretty much liberalism on a stick. Resisting colonialism in real life is not Ewoks, Millenium Falcons and happy endings. It’s nasty, messy and brutal.
This user literally expected Palestinians to wait for the west’s pearl-clutching to stave off Israel’s genocide - you know, that thing that has failed to stop Israel for decades now - instead of accepting the logistics and support Iran is obviously willing to supply (albeit for Iran’s own geopolitical ends). It doesn’t get more Liberal™ than this.
This is literally the kind of white liberalism that MLK criticized in his Birmingham letters - and, having spent a lot of time now dealing with the liberal hive mind here on lemmy.world, I suspect MLK had put his finger on something that is far, far more dangerous and deeply-rooted than the left wants to believe.
I’m 1000% with you. I probably just don’t understand enough context of the Middle East conflict to see where he did what you’re saying.
How are you inferring that about their views on Palestinian resistance? Are the Houthis like Hamas or something and he’s saying it’s wrong that anyone would support them?
I’ll be honest, I upvoted that comment because I agree with the idea that people might change labels and not actually change their beliefs or how they come to conclusions. I’m removing the upvote now though because I clearly didn’t understand it entirely and I’ve learned I’m not the biggest fan of neo-liberalism. I still want to be able to comprehend what they wrote better so that’s why I’m asking.
Edit: I also find it weird to say everyone/most people that disagree with me are fake and malicious. I’d be inclined to assume they’re just ignorant or whatever. There’s a lot to learn to be a good leftist, imo!
Are the Houthis like Hamas or something and he’s saying it’s wrong that anyone would support them?
Think about what this would look like during WW2. Would rooting for the Soviets to win the battle of Stalingrad make you a Stalinist or even a tankie? Of course it wouldn’t - you are just cogniscent of the fact that things would actually get a whole lot worse if the Soviets lose. But that won’t stop a whole bunch of fascists (and their liberal sympathizers) from pretending that you are. Not much has changed about that.
When someone is dropping bombs on your neighborhood and murdering people like you right in front of your eyes you don’t get the luxury of waiting for a squeaky-clean and Hollywood-perfect organisation to hand out AKs and Semtex - you have to go with what is there. And a lot of what is there aren’t the nicest of people because the nicer people either don’t have the logistic support to give you anything or are simply dead. If the old PLO (Palestinian Liberation Organization - which was a lot more nationalistic than Hamas) was still around, these same liberals would be hysterically demonizing them in this scenario, too.
There’s a lot to learn to be a good leftist, imo!
Not much point in being a “good leftist” (whatever that may mean) in my opinion - I’d rather say be a “good at it” leftist.
That makes a lot of sense. I appreciate the explanation and WW2 comparison.
That last bit was a light joke. When I’ve asked others questions in the past I’ve been met with hostility; some people seem to act as though a lot of this stuff is obvious. Maybe it is for some, or I’m just a bit dense
Think about what this would look like during WW2. Would rooting for the Soviets to win the battle of Stalingrad make you a Stalinist or even a tankie? Of course it wouldn’t - you are just cogniscent of the fact that things would actually get a whole lot worse if the Soviets lose. But that won’t stop a whole bunch of fascists (and their liberal sympathizers) from pretending that you are. Not much has changed about that.
Hey, what’s your opinion on Biden again?
Generally speaking (and impersonally) it usually comes down to the intersection of capitalism and war. Pure unadulterated military industrial complex is a hallmark of American-style liberalism. So if a person identifies with the military industrial complex that will usually be your prime indicator. It isn’t perfect but it’s fairly reliable with a few exceptions.
That makes perfect sense. Where did they identify with the military industrial complex?
Sorry if I’m coming off dumb. It seems like y’all are reading between the lines/catching some kind of dog whistle, or I just missed something super obvious
I am trying to be diplomatic so I was speaking in general and not about anyone specifically.
Now if you check any given person’s post history you can usually get a clearer picture.
(There’s just known personalities and prejudices at work here rather than random strangers inferring things on this thread alone.)
The liberal who doesn’t believe in the concept of critical support.
edit: Sorry… replied to the wrong post.
OP blames all the world’s ills on anyone to the left of Manchin.
Explain the absolute takes on the Russian war by Jeremy Corbin and Noam Chomsky. They have encouraged Ukraine to surrender, which is tacit approval of Russia’s invasion by giving Russia everything that they ever asked for
Explain Hassan shilling for Hamas
They have encouraged Ukraine to surrender,
Show me where Corbyn and Chomsky has said this.
https://twitter.com/achkhikvadze/status/1786879477919649927
He is just saying Ukraine can’t win so it has to accept Russia’s terms (which are basically surrendering its sovereignty)
He is just saying Ukraine can’t win
I guess it’s just a pure coincidence that it’s now perfectly clear that Ukraine can’t win, eh?
Ukraine actually can’t lose as long as it has the support of the free world
Here’s Corbyn doing his job as a Russian asset trying to stop the flow of weapons into Ukraine
Here’s what I typed…
Show me where Corbyn and Chomsky has said this.
Did you misunderstand, perhaps? Here’s what I absolutely did not say…
Show me where Corbyn and Chomsky talked about the practical options Ukraine faces so that you can interpret this as “surrender.”
Is any of this getting through to you?
Neither of those say what you say they said…
Corbin says he encourages “peace” efforts rather than war efforts, which you know duh everybody does.
Chompsky is similar, why or rather now are you twisting either of those in your head to mean something else?
What the actual fuck? War efforts are what’s needed. Because you know, people are dying because of Russian bombs. It’s shooting back that saves lives. Defending their viewpoints is basically tacit approval of wars of aggression.
Notice I didn’t take a stance I simply stated that what you said that article contained is not in fact the truth.
People who advocate for peace with Russia are in fact advocating for Ukrainian surrender. That’s because Russia’s condition IS surrender. If they had more modest goals, that would be one thing
Hassan
You mean the grifter? He knows what he is doing. And he is doing this on purpose.
radicalize
Leftists are radicalized by default, genius.
Stalin would disagree
The modern definition of leftism is socialism and co. And socialism is inherently authoritarian.
Socialism is inherently authoritarian? The ideology where power, ownership of production, and wealth is decentralized, removed from the oligarchs and capitalist elite and given back to those who generate it? That’s authoritarian?
I think you, like many who have been subjected to decades of propaganda have equated “socialism” with the failed states that are “communist” in name only, where power and production was centralized to be redistributed to the people, but never followed through with the decentralized part. They’re certainly authoritarian, but they are not socialist.
Also communism is a specific form of socialism. Socialism is not necessarily communism. Like how all dogs are mammals, but not all mammals are dogs.
Giving the people the power of the economy is authoritarian. That makes sense.
Where is a socialist country run by people instead of a political elite class?
Giving the people the power of the economy
That’s called capitalism.
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is that a joke or is that a serious claim?
Wut?
Do you really believe capitalism gives economical power to the people? And if yes, do you say “people” as “everyone” or “people” as “some people based on some criteria”?
There’s no need to believe in facts.
You mean like Hamas? Leftists have this oppression totempole, and anyone being “oppressed” are automatically good.
You don’t have to be “good” to deserve human rights.
Sure. But at the same time, if you attempt to commit genocide, porportional self defense is fair. The question becomes what is porportional.
Proportional self-defense probably ended before November, though, when the Palestinian civilian death toll hopped up to over triple the Israeli civilian death toll from the Hamas attack.
Well, from that single attack on Oct 7th, but thats just one attack out of many. Its unclear just how many have been killed, and by who.
Not really. Even the highest estimates of Israeli casualties for the entire year don’t come close.
Maybe? Hamas clearly gives zero shits about civilians and theres so much propaganda coming out, I wouldnt be surprised to find out Hamas has a higher body count.
Hell, I wouldnt put it past Hamas to delibritly murder Gaza civilians in order to blame the IDF. Hell, didnt they hit a hospital with a rocket?
You yourself just cut a check for Hamas to indiscriminately slaughter 29k israelis as “proportional self defense” for how far in the red that ledger is over Oct 7th.
Considering they shot a rocket at a hospital and blamed the IDF, I wouldnt be surprised if we’re already there. Impossible to know for sure though
People don’t like complex problems. And no, I probably don’t side with you.
New phone huthis?
FYI: Those leftists are right wing trolls under a false flag, exactly like those “Biden takes 100% blame for Israel’s every action” guys. They come from /pol and Telegram.
100% this.
People who think rather than be mindless tribalists can approve of a specific action of a group without approving of their ideology or other actions of theirs.
For example I approve of what the Biden Adminstration has done towards Ukraine whilst not approving of their ideology that puts the Democratic control of people’s life in a nation (i.e. the vote that controls the leaders of the state who make decisions for how the state acts for the good of the many) below Oligarchic control (I.e. Money decides) by defending that the state should not regulate anything that might impact Money or “interfere in the Market”, and do not approve of their unconditional support of the quasi-Nazis know as Zionists even in the middle of them committing a Genocide.
One has to wonder if the endless posts by this user constantly trying to misportray “lefties” as basically all “commies” (including a cartoon the other day where the leftie character wore a red shirt with a hammer and a sickle just in case we were in any doubt what he thought “lefties” were) isn’t very purposeful tribalist propaganda from a very specific American Political Tribe that passes itself for left over there whilst being pro-Oligarch hard-right.
Certainly this endless hammering of the same drum has a very similar stink as the kind of argumentation we get from mindless Trumpists (pre-made generalizations about other people presented as “I know best what they are [even though I’ve never been anywhere close to that political side]”), clearly driven by the same mindless tribalism and structured as broad strokes group slandering Propaganda (it’s hard to stroke more broadly than the entire Left) only this messaging is coming from the pro-Oligarch American Right rather than from the Fascist American Right.
One has to wonder if the endless posts by this user constantly trying to misportray “lefties” as basically all “commies”
Oh, is that what I’m trying to do? Here I thought I was addressing a specific subset of leftists that is common here on Lemmy.
If that’s you intention, you’re not at all being clear in making the distinction.
A lot of your criticism is against doing things which can just as easilly be the natural conclusions of having run of the mill Leftwing or even just Humanist principles (say: “though shall not kill tens of thousands of children due to their etnicity or help doing so” or “politics should aim for the greatest good for the greatest number in preference to making an aggregated Economic number larger”) as they can be the mindless idiological parrotings from actual “commies”.
For example, one needs not be an instinctive pro-Russia tankie playing mind games to somehow support Trump, to state that voting for somebody activelly supporting an etnic genocide being commited by the supporters of a quasi-Nazi ideology would be too much for anybody with Humanist principles: absolutelly normal general Humanist Principles such as “though shall not kill innocents such as children” (which aren’t at exclusive of the Left) explain that posture of not voting for any candidate.
I mean, I’ve seen posts of yours that I totally agree with (because they align with my Principles), but in anything which is to do with Political Factions, in my view you totally abandon principled thinking and just go full on tribalist often passing the impression that you have the very same kind of “everybody has a tribe” expectation as the Far-Right muppets.
Might want to consider that many people don’t have Tribes (were people blindly follow the chief and untinkingly parrot the tribal slogans), and instead they have Principles, so support or not things based on how much those things align with their Principles not with any Party Line.
My impression here in Lemmy is that there are a lot more Lefties By Principle than Members Of Self-Proclaimed Leftwing Tribes, though there are certainly a lot more of the latter than in the average English-speaking social media.
For example, one needs not be an instinctive pro-Russia tankie playing mind games to somehow support Trump,
I hope you mean ‘or somehow support Trump’.
to state that voting for somebody activelly supporting an etnic genocide being commited by the supporters of a quasi-Nazi ideology would be too much for anybody with Humanist principles: absolutelly normal general Humanist Principles such as “though shall not kill innocents such as children” (which aren’t at exclusive of the Left) explain that posture of not voting for any candidate.
And I call that position out for what it is. Tacit support for fascism.
I’m opposed to the Palestinian genocide. It’s not like I don’t get that. If it were up to me, Israel wouldn’t get one red cent from any democratic nation.
But opting for the greater evil doesn’t save anyone. Contributing to a Trump victory - and yes, choosing inaction is an action - will endanger many millions more without even the hope of changing what is supposedly being protested against - indeed, actually making it worse.
And, you know, me and mine? We’re not at the top of the target list, but we’re definitely not at the bottom either. So I’d like to not end up marching into an extermination camp because someone wanted to feel ‘principled’ when they refused to vote for the lesser evil who will continue democracy and not initiate any new genocides. It’s deeply frustrating to me when people who claim to care about minorities won’t do the least damn thing, a check in a box, to use their very real power as citizens to help avert a very serious situation. What else is that to be seen as, other than passive support for sending me and my family into the death camps?
I mean, I’m honestly not that attached to my own life. But my family I love. Some of them, at least. And I would very much like it if other minorities in the US weren’t genocided either. If that’s not a reason to get fucking furious at people doing nothing when they could be doing something at minimal fucking cost to them, I don’t know what is.
Fuck, you want to overthrow the system? I’m not stopping you. But if you aren’t doing it in the next six months, check the fucking box for those of us who have to live through this shite.
I mean, I’ve seen posts of yours that I totally agree with (because they align with my Principles), but in anything which is to do with Political Factions, in my view you totally abandon principled thinking and just go full on tribalist often passing the impression that you have the very same kind of “everybody has a tribe” expectation as the Far-Right muppets.
I mean, everyone does have a tribe, but that tribe isn’t always relevant to political discussion. Most of the time when I’m bitching, it’s about people whose principles should nominally align against a certain action or particularly vile faction, but align with it instead for some godforsaken reason (usually, a mixture of ‘They oppose Tribe I Hate so they must be good’ and ‘The other members of My Tribe say this and I want to reinforce their positions’).
My impression here in Lemmy is that there are a lot more Lefties By Principle than Members Of Self-Proclaimed Leftwing Tribes, though there are certainly a lot more of the latter than in the average English-speaking social media.
I think you put too much emphasis on the label and not the tribe. People in Lemmy are as tribal as any other - the difference is that their ‘tribe’ has more to do with their social circles than their self-applied political labels.
Might want to consider that many people don’t have Tribes (were people blindly follow the chief and untinkingly parrot the tribal slogans), and instead they have Principles, so support or not things based on how much those things align with their Principles not with any Party Line.
The superiority complex is strong with this one. Do you truly believe you, and the people that agree with you, of course, are the only ones with principles? lol. (Also why did you capitalize it?)
“Seek first to understand, then to be understood.” I don’t think you actually understand their position and should be asking more questions instead of assuming so much, especially when you admit you don’t understand why they seem to go against their own principles (you might have to convince yourself you’re not that special beforehand).
Too many people claiming to be on the left are just “America bad, therefore anyone who hates America is good” full-stop.
What’s more likely;
Their online identities are real and their support for authoritarian nazi-types is fake.
OR
Their online identities are just a mask and their support for authoritarian nazi-types is 100% genuine.
Given how much Lemmy “leftists” trip all over each other in order to praise the Chinese characteristics that cause “socialism” to produce billionaires while overlooking human rights abuses, yeah, I think it is the authoritarianism they like and not the economics.
There’s certainly a “baby socialist” to china stan pipeline. I’ve heard people blame PSL for this irl, but that group doesn’t exist in my area. Online, there’s probably some communities that i could care less about that act as these pipelines.
And if you stay at that baby socialist stage and come out on the other side of the pipeline, you will end up one of the least socialistic people who has deeply authoritarian views and the worst takes. “Ah yes, i’m a socialist, we need 100 years of brutal authoritarian state capitalism to build our industrial capacity to allow us to transition to socialism. That’s what marx meant when talking about the dictatership of the proletariat.” -statements dreamed up by the utterly deranged
Hate to tell you but authoritarianism isn’t endemic to either the left or the right.
True, but the auth-left is really rabid for authority. Sometimes it’s not even very left but it’s some “trusted institution” and it’s “unamerican” to question it. I say question all power structures. Because if you can’t even question them you are in a bad place culturally.
The most common one I have seen irl is people who are actually on the left, communists, trotskyists, marxist-leninists who are extremly anti-america under the guise of anti-imperialism who have slowly turned into campist “if they are against america that’s good” types
How much they like them varies. I’ve seen people who hate them, they just hate them less than the US, and see them as a part in their undoing. I’ve seen people who kinda like them, but only in the sense they are a resistance. Granted, those people will actually condemn them if it comes to their crimes.
I’ve also seen people focus solely on the yemeni people, and after giving a speech at a protest someone got upset at them for “supporting the houthis.” And in that speech that person mentioned the yemeni people’s suffering under the houthis and their need to go. Some people will also just conflate individual living under a repressive regime to being a member of it, and use that to vilify solidarity with the oppressed. I’ve seen that a lot with calling every palestinian a hamas supporter.
Online people, on the other hand… 😬
In case anybody was unaware, here’s some info about the Houthi flag:
The slogan of the Houthi movement (officially called “Ansar Allah”), a Shia Islamist political and military organization in Yemen, reads “God Is the Greatest, Death to America, Death to Israel, A Curse Upon the Jews, Victory to Islam”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slogan_of_the_Houthi_movement
If you read a bit of the recent sick Yemen history that flag makes a lot of sense.
🙋Is saying “fucking up Israeli ships is based” considered praising Houthis?
Praising, no. Dumb, usually; since Israeli ships aren’t even the majority of targets hit by the Houthis.
Also the majority of ships attacked by the Houthis are civilian. You can’t complain that Israel isn’t doing enough to protect civilians in Gaza and then cheer for attacks on civilians.
I can ‘get’ a limited argument for that in a ‘total war’ sense of economic warfare, though I’d still regard it as abhorrent.
Fact is it’s not even that much, though. It’s just random attacks on shipping because their paymasters benefit from the chaos and the Houthis benefit from the raised profile.
MFers can’t even do one thing fully based smh
I haven’t heard anything about this so I’m not sure about this claim unless anyone is able to link credible evidence
And remember that politics is a spectrum and has its own faction
Remember that we are all human amd we should be working together for a common cause to remove bigotry, intolerance and those who preach intolerance from the world and we should be working towards transitioning away from the exploitative system of capitalism
I haven’t heard anything about this so I’m not sure about this claim unless anyone is able to link credible evidence
Sure. How many examples do you want? Just from Lemmy, or are articles from Left-wing magazines alright too? Twitter and Reddit are low-hanging fruit, so we can exclude them.
Twitter and Reddit are low handing fruit, but Lemmy isn’t? Lol…
Anyways, yes, I’d be interested in some left-wing magazines that aren’t just a tankie/“America bad, Russia good” outlet. Maybe 3 different sources if you have that many?
Anyways, yes, I’d be interested in some left-wing magazines that aren’t just a tankie/“America bad, Russia good” outlet. Maybe 3 different sources if you have that many?
Other way around - the left-wing magazines (actual magazines, not Kbin communities) I’m talking about praising the Houthis very much are “America Bad Russia Good” types.
Can you just provide some sources so we have context as to what you are talking about?
Some puff pieces:
https://socialistworker.co.uk/palestine-2023/strikes-on-yemen/
https://www.liberationnews.org/why-are-the-u-s-and-uk-bombing-yemen/
https://www.liberationnews.org/who-are-the-houthis/
https://theintercept.com/2024/01/19/houthis-yemen-biden-airstrikes/
Bonus non-puff pieces, providing an outside (if hostile) look at the ongoing process of the Houthi ‘rehabilitation’ in some circles:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/01/24/world/middleeast/yemen-houthis-propaganda.html
https://www.foreignaffairs.com/united-states/how-war-gaza-revived-axis-resistance
When are people on both the right and left going to learn. There is no one in the middle east who’s values actually align with yours. So stop supporting a side and lets get our selves completely out of not our business.
Though genocide is our business so that’s the one time we should take a side.
But in everything else where we’ve taken a side it has been a mistake. Folk on all sides of the middle east project to the west an image they hope will garner sympathy in hopes we will fight wars for them and they can avoid fighting their own wars. “Genuineness” is a uniquely western thing to see as a positive value. Absolutely no culture in the middle east values presenting an honest image of themselves to us. The idea of that being socially positive or necessary for their own sense of ethics is literally foreign to them. I’m not trying to single out Muslim countries or Israel. What I’m saying is we in the west do in fact have values that are particular to us, and we need to stop imagining those values on others. That’s why the whole of the middle east is like that. Because they aren’t us.
Then the other thing we should understand is that all sides employ what are basically professional communicators who study our culture and use what they understand of it to manipulate us. So we get dragged into problems that aren’t ours and expose ourselves to actual security threats as a result.
The Kurds are pretty based, all things considered. They deserved better.
Which values? I have met authoritarians, democrats, socialists, and theocrats in Missouri. Why should Yemen be different? I find this “East vs. West” cultural/values narrative to be a convenient fiction for demagogues to take advantage of.
I remember seeing a pro-Palestine protest in Atlanta where they were chanting “Yemen, Yemen do us proud/turn another ship around”, so yeah this isn’t a straw man claim.
CMV level 1: Houthis didn’t exist for anyone in eurosphere until they bombed ships.
CMV level 2: The regime they fought was shitty, but so is their current administration.
CMV level 3: They had zero reason to bomb ships because they don’t have any interest in this, but they were told to do so by investors and suppliers like Iran in exchange for something for their corrupt elites.
CMV level 1: Houthis didn’t exist for anyone in eurosphere until they bombed ships.
As someone who follows foreign policy, I object! Some of us were here observing a conflict that had no traction in broader culture and we had no influence over!
That’s surprising. Looking at that conflict or any other, like in Myanmar (pre their r/combat_footage popularity), makes me feel like I’m the only english-speaking person who even know it’s going on.
I can be moderately entertaining, so I make sure my friends are informed as well. But yeah, it’s a pretty small percentage of us who give a damn about foreign affairs. The number of people I’ve met who don’t even know the difference between Iran and Iraq is… astounding.
It’s a given. And the fact of it itself is somehow sobering. In a way you stop giving a fuck that much about what ill-informed actors tell. Many of them didn’t even read wikipedia, but spread their influencer’s pov to others.
To be fair, when the media refuses to cover something how does a normal person even know what to search for?
Iran and Iraq are constantly in the news, though. At least the Houthis were somewhat obscure until recently.
The Yemen shit has been in the news somewhat before this. It just hasn’t been a very pertinent conflict most of the time for European viewers.
They’ve demonstrated Americans can lose militarily and still not have healthcare, which is both sad and a little funny.
Vietnam beat them by by about 50 years.
Leftist around here just means a friend of americas enemies, economics and social issues never seem to enter into it, excepto as meaningless verbal cudgels.
That’s just not true though.
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