I agree with the sentiment – there’s no reason to be proud of being white – but I can’t believe “just don’t be white!” pops up on here semi-regularly. That’s just not an option for a lot of people, because you can’t dictate how others perceive you. It’s like telling someone who’s 6’6" to not be tall.
Whiteness isn’t simply the physical trait of having pale skin, in the way being tall is a physical trait. An entire social scaffolding has been built around the physical quality of pale skin, that denotes the absence of race, the presence of “normalcy”, “purity”, “superiority”, and therefore a place at the top of a racial hierarchy.
But at the same time, whiteness is like the fucking Borg. In the US especially, the concept of whiteness assimilated a ton of different ethnic groups, robbed them of their language and culture, and left gringos like me with no culture to speak of, beyond getting run over by a Ford F250, while on your way to get a Big Mac.
And there’s no real way to recover that cultural identity. Like, ok, I have Irish ancestry, but what does that really mean at this point? No one in my family has spoken Gaelic for generations and St Patrick’s Day is just a reason for white people to get hammered. And in many ways, that’s a horrendous tragedy, and a deep psychic wound in the minds of the settler population on this continent. There’s a reason Americans love Genealogy. It’s because they have no actual connection to the land they live on, so they scrape for some past, that the whiteness and colonialism which they benefit from, has also robbed from them.
That said, though I’m white, I’m also bi and trans. My queerness ties me to a history and a culture that’s much more tangible then what your average straight, mayo, American has. So while I personally like to joke that “my ethnicity is removed”, It’s incredibly difficult to “not be white” in that socio-cultural sense. Because whiteness is so all consuming. There’s no individual way to “stop being white”, the only way forward is to abolish whiteness as a category.
Edit: Mods are erasing my ethnicity! I will not be silenced! /s
Agh my family actually succeeded at this supposedly “impossible” task so I legit have a lot of thoughts and opinions about the path towards white dissimilation and abolition and the form it might take, I just cannot find the right way to phrase it without getting misinterpreted aghhhh
I’ve written like four drafts or something for an effortpost about this but GOD WILLING if I can work out the kinks I will share it later today (GOD WILLING)
But yeah it’s like, “how do we kill whiteness” feels like one of those topics where people here actually do tend to agree on a lot if not most of the basics, but people still just tend to be uncharitable (not maliciously ofc) with how they interpret others, and this causes conflicts to emerge basically out of thin air… I think that’s what makes whiteness a thornier issue to write about than it really needs to be, because I feel like I just have to constantly assure readers that yes I have accounted for this-and-that Actually, and no I am not saying such-and-such In Fact — otherwise I get paranoid I’m gonna get anta-baka’d over things that I wasn’t actually trying to say, blech
Edit: in fact the problem of misinterpretation I’m describing already happened in this very thread as I was writing this comment, and I hadn’t even said anything other than “white dissimilation” and “my family succeeded”
Edit 2: in fact that person wasn’t actually trying to misinterpret me but I assumed he was, ironically
I don’t think the answer (for white people) to “race is a social construct” should be “go one-drop yourself into an ethnic history you’ve never experienced and are half making up on the spot.” If my great-great-great grandma is from Spain but the last few generations of my family lived in Flyover USA, it’d be pretty weird for me to wake up one day and go around telling everyone I’m Spanish. Weirder still if that ancestor was from Catalonia and I try to say I’m personally affected by the Catalan independence movement.
A better response is to not actively identify with any race or ethnicity and try to do things that address the damage done by those concepts.
Sure, but if you fit other people’s perceptions of a race well enough, they’re going to treat you like they treat people of that race regardless of your thoughts on the matter. It’s not a choice I can make.
Okay I’m pretty sure “just don’t be white” is referring to the caste identity. Nobody expects you to stop having bleach skin, I don’t think.
I will say though, it is kind of rich reading a white person’s complaints about how they can’t change people’s perception of a race and will always be perceived as white. Like, hmmmm…
Okay I’m pretty sure “just don’t be white” is referring to the caste identity.
How does this change what I said? I can agree with any analysis of whiteness put forward, but that will not change the way people perceive me. It’s nonsensical advice.
it is kind of rich reading a white person’s complaints
“This advice does not make sense” is not a complaint. If you tell me I can stop being poor if I tug on my bootstraps, I’m not complaining if I point out the world does not work that way.
What it means is: stop identifying with “white” as a cultural thing, because “white” is a label constructed by racist fuckers exclusively for the purpose of oppressing people by way of
You are litetally saying, “I’ll never be perceived as anything but the most privileged group in racial terms”, and that comes off as pretty tone deaf. But it’s also totally missing the point I made above, about what “white” is as a concept and why everyone needs to stop identifying with it.
Various POC are still gonna call you “white” because I dunno, that’s the label associated with their oppression. That’s not for you to worry about though, you just need to quit identifying with it. That is what “not being white” means.
What it means is: stop identifying with “white” as a cultural thing
You’re looking for disagreement where there is none. The first thing I said was:
I agree with the sentiment – there’s no reason to be proud of being white
I can agree race is a social construct, and I can choose not to think of myself in racial terms, but that does not have any material impact on the world. How other people classify me – cops, banks, landlords, whoever – will not change no matter what I personally think of race. And people treating each other differently based on perceptions of race is a major, material way the concept of race is used to harm people. If I’m not affecting that in the slightest, what is the use of “don’t be white?”
Okay but if you agree with that then there’s no problem?
Yes, that’s true. You aren’t gonna stop benefiting from a white supremacist society, Idk. Just be cognizant of that privilege, you know? That’s all people are asking you to do with this. Nobody expects you to end racism single handedly, “don’t be white” is about internal thought processes and being aware of how you benefit, I’m pretty sure that’s all.
I mean, since being white gives you the benefit of the doubt from cops and stuff, you could make use of that to do something extremely funny
I agree with the sentiment – there’s no reason to be proud of being white – but I can’t believe “just don’t be white!” pops up on here semi-regularly. That’s just not an option for a lot of people, because you can’t dictate how others perceive you. It’s like telling someone who’s 6’6" to not be tall.
Whiteness isn’t simply the physical trait of having pale skin, in the way being tall is a physical trait. An entire social scaffolding has been built around the physical quality of pale skin, that denotes the absence of race, the presence of “normalcy”, “purity”, “superiority”, and therefore a place at the top of a racial hierarchy.
But at the same time, whiteness is like the fucking Borg. In the US especially, the concept of whiteness assimilated a ton of different ethnic groups, robbed them of their language and culture, and left gringos like me with no culture to speak of, beyond getting run over by a Ford F250, while on your way to get a Big Mac.
And there’s no real way to recover that cultural identity. Like, ok, I have Irish ancestry, but what does that really mean at this point? No one in my family has spoken Gaelic for generations and St Patrick’s Day is just a reason for white people to get hammered. And in many ways, that’s a horrendous tragedy, and a deep psychic wound in the minds of the settler population on this continent. There’s a reason Americans love Genealogy. It’s because they have no actual connection to the land they live on, so they scrape for some past, that the whiteness and colonialism which they benefit from, has also robbed from them.
That said, though I’m white, I’m also bi and trans. My queerness ties me to a history and a culture that’s much more tangible then what your average straight, mayo, American has. So while I personally like to joke that “my ethnicity is removed”, It’s incredibly difficult to “not be white” in that socio-cultural sense. Because whiteness is so all consuming. There’s no individual way to “stop being white”, the only way forward is to abolish whiteness as a category.
Edit: Mods are erasing my ethnicity! I will not be silenced! /s
Agh my family actually succeeded at this supposedly “impossible” task so I legit have a lot of thoughts and opinions about the path towards white dissimilation and abolition and the form it might take, I just cannot find the right way to phrase it without getting misinterpreted aghhhh
Well, if you can figure it out. I’d love to hear your thoughts, comrade
I’ve written like four drafts or something for an effortpost about this but GOD WILLING if I can work out the kinks I will share it later today (GOD WILLING)
But yeah it’s like, “how do we kill whiteness” feels like one of those topics where people here actually do tend to agree on a lot if not most of the basics, but people still just tend to be uncharitable (not maliciously ofc) with how they interpret others, and this causes conflicts to emerge basically out of thin air… I think that’s what makes whiteness a thornier issue to write about than it really needs to be, because I feel like I just have to constantly assure readers that yes I have accounted for this-and-that Actually, and no I am not saying such-and-such In Fact — otherwise I get paranoid I’m gonna get anta-baka’d over things that I wasn’t actually trying to say, blech
Edit: in fact the problem of misinterpretation I’m describing already happened in this very thread as I was writing this comment, and I hadn’t even said anything other than “white dissimilation” and “my family succeeded”
Edit 2: in fact that person wasn’t actually trying to misinterpret me but I assumed he was, ironically
I don’t think the answer (for white people) to “race is a social construct” should be “go one-drop yourself into an ethnic history you’ve never experienced and are half making up on the spot.” If my great-great-great grandma is from Spain but the last few generations of my family lived in Flyover USA, it’d be pretty weird for me to wake up one day and go around telling everyone I’m Spanish. Weirder still if that ancestor was from Catalonia and I try to say I’m personally affected by the Catalan independence movement.
A better response is to not actively identify with any race or ethnicity and try to do things that address the damage done by those concepts.
Holy Hell I haven’t even said my piece and I’m already having my beliefs assumed
Wasn’t trying to do that; I’m speaking to what I’ve seen too many white people do.
Wait so I was actually assuming your beliefs, then, rather than the reverse… That’s a bit ironic, sorry about that.
Ha no worries
It’s still a skin colour, I just don’t regard it as a cultural entity, much less a “racial” one
Sure, but if you fit other people’s perceptions of a race well enough, they’re going to treat you like they treat people of that race regardless of your thoughts on the matter. It’s not a choice I can make.
Okay I’m pretty sure “just don’t be white” is referring to the caste identity. Nobody expects you to stop having bleach skin, I don’t think.
I will say though, it is kind of rich reading a white person’s complaints about how they can’t change people’s perception of a race and will always be perceived as white. Like, hmmmm…
How does this change what I said? I can agree with any analysis of whiteness put forward, but that will not change the way people perceive me. It’s nonsensical advice.
“This advice does not make sense” is not a complaint. If you tell me I can stop being poor if I tug on my bootstraps, I’m not complaining if I point out the world does not work that way.
What it means is: stop identifying with “white” as a cultural thing, because “white” is a label constructed by racist fuckers exclusively for the purpose of oppressing people by way of
You are litetally saying, “I’ll never be perceived as anything but the most privileged group in racial terms”, and that comes off as pretty tone deaf. But it’s also totally missing the point I made above, about what “white” is as a concept and why everyone needs to stop identifying with it.
Various POC are still gonna call you “white” because I dunno, that’s the label associated with their oppression. That’s not for you to worry about though, you just need to quit identifying with it. That is what “not being white” means.
You’re looking for disagreement where there is none. The first thing I said was:
I can agree race is a social construct, and I can choose not to think of myself in racial terms, but that does not have any material impact on the world. How other people classify me – cops, banks, landlords, whoever – will not change no matter what I personally think of race. And people treating each other differently based on perceptions of race is a major, material way the concept of race is used to harm people. If I’m not affecting that in the slightest, what is the use of “don’t be white?”
Okay but if you agree with that then there’s no problem?
Yes, that’s true. You aren’t gonna stop benefiting from a white supremacist society, Idk. Just be cognizant of that privilege, you know? That’s all people are asking you to do with this. Nobody expects you to end racism single handedly, “don’t be white” is about internal thought processes and being aware of how you benefit, I’m pretty sure that’s all.
I mean, since being white gives you the benefit of the doubt from cops and stuff, you could make use of that to do something extremely funny
You’re right, no problems here comrade
yes, that is unfortunately correct