Systems function vastly differently. Social structure directs values, opportunities, and relationships. Denying the differences of systems, and asserting human behavior as inflexible and prescribed, is simply obstructing meaningful possibilities for change.
Denying the differences of systems, and asserting human behavior as inflexible and prescribed
That’s not what I’ve said, at all. I didn’t say any system wasn’t different, I just said that none of them have addressed the real problem. Also, I in no way said that human behaviour is inflexible and prescribed; the point I’m making is that people are flexible, and that these systems do not adequately account for that ingenuity when it is applied maliciously.
Social structure directs values, opportunities, and relationships.
If anything, you are implying that human behaviour is prescribed here. I think it is more accurate to say that social structure influences people. It doesn’t direct them, any more than a lone person with a stick can herd a sheep.
Shuffling up the system influences people to work harder when they grow complacent, and simultaneously gives those who have little a better chance to build something greater. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s better than the status quo, and encourages further change.
You seem to be framing argument around the premise that the driving force behind human behavior is seeking to harm others for fulfilling selfish ends, transcending personal experience and social environment.
I am challenging your underlying premise, as collapsing harmful outcomes into a singular cause, not strongly substantiated or thoughtfully conceived.
You seem to be trying to box me into some sort of scarecrow, so you can argue that instead, rather than actually reading and considering what I’m saying.
You have not presented any challenge here. You haven’t even addressed any point that I’ve made. If it isn’t people causing the problem, then what is it? What is the problem?
Lmfao where did I say nuke them all? You’re really trying it on now.
If you don’t have anything significant to add to the discussion, if all you want to do is try and twist things into a “gotcha”, then you should really just move on. You’re only embarrassing yourself right now.
You’re simply saying vague things and trying to expand the language to sound clever and definitive. And yet, when I have asked you to define specific things, you have deflected.
I have defined the problem: people, not the social structure. I have described how the social structures we have implemented so far are inadequate solutions at addressing the problem; people figure out the structure and play it to their advantage. I have suggested that we need to keep the systems in flux - to shuffle them up - in order to mitigate people taking advantage. Furthermore I have said that this will direct us to better societal systems overall in the long run. New possibilities require ongoing change, on a fundamental, not brief and superficial level.
You have offered little to nothing in this conversation. You’ve taken pot shots, but they’re firing further and further from the mark. You’re positioning yourself against me, as if defeating me will be some kind of victory. I would much prefer it if you worked with me so we can both figure out the objective truth. I don’t want you to say I’m wrong, I want you to prove what I’m saying is wrong, as if you succeed in that I’ll know things better.
Again, though, a problem that can be solved is not a problem simply described as “people”, unless you are making a suggestion that mostly everyone finds disagreeable, such as denying the existence of others, or advocating a collective suicide pact.
Is it not more coherent to frame as an objective how people may live together, as people in society, pursuing their shared interests as people?
Consider an analogy. Suppose a bicycle breaks. Would it not be sensible to try to find the flaws in the structure, and to replace or to reconfigure the parts identified as broken?
Would you take the bicycle to a repair shop, expecting the proprietor to explain simply that the problem is “bicycles”?
Do you see the problem, with framing as a problem, that which is already given as unalterable?
Again, the problems people face is not “people”, but of how we may live as people.
Systems function vastly differently. Social structure directs values, opportunities, and relationships. Denying the differences of systems, and asserting human behavior as inflexible and prescribed, is simply obstructing meaningful possibilities for change.
That’s not what I’ve said, at all. I didn’t say any system wasn’t different, I just said that none of them have addressed the real problem. Also, I in no way said that human behaviour is inflexible and prescribed; the point I’m making is that people are flexible, and that these systems do not adequately account for that ingenuity when it is applied maliciously.
If anything, you are implying that human behaviour is prescribed here. I think it is more accurate to say that social structure influences people. It doesn’t direct them, any more than a lone person with a stick can herd a sheep.
Shuffling up the system influences people to work harder when they grow complacent, and simultaneously gives those who have little a better chance to build something greater. It’s not a perfect solution, but it’s better than the status quo, and encourages further change.
You seem to be framing argument around the premise that the driving force behind human behavior is seeking to harm others for fulfilling selfish ends, transcending personal experience and social environment.
I am challenging your underlying premise, as collapsing harmful outcomes into a singular cause, not strongly substantiated or thoughtfully conceived.
You seem to be trying to box me into some sort of scarecrow, so you can argue that instead, rather than actually reading and considering what I’m saying.
You have not presented any challenge here. You haven’t even addressed any point that I’ve made. If it isn’t people causing the problem, then what is it? What is the problem?
Yes, silly. The unifying feature of all human society is that it is made up of people.
Do you have any values or aspirations for the kind of world in which you want to live, or is it just nuke 'em all?
Lmfao where did I say nuke them all? You’re really trying it on now.
If you don’t have anything significant to add to the discussion, if all you want to do is try and twist things into a “gotcha”, then you should really just move on. You’re only embarrassing yourself right now.
Listen. I am simply observing that your framing of society provides to no one any value.
The concern for people is how to configure people in a society that supports people achieving their shared interests as people.
It provides no value to anyone simply to assert as the problem having no solution simply that there are people.
I am encouraging you to consider, even just to imagine, the different possibilities for the world in which we could share.
You’re simply saying vague things and trying to expand the language to sound clever and definitive. And yet, when I have asked you to define specific things, you have deflected.
I have defined the problem: people, not the social structure. I have described how the social structures we have implemented so far are inadequate solutions at addressing the problem; people figure out the structure and play it to their advantage. I have suggested that we need to keep the systems in flux - to shuffle them up - in order to mitigate people taking advantage. Furthermore I have said that this will direct us to better societal systems overall in the long run. New possibilities require ongoing change, on a fundamental, not brief and superficial level.
You have offered little to nothing in this conversation. You’ve taken pot shots, but they’re firing further and further from the mark. You’re positioning yourself against me, as if defeating me will be some kind of victory. I would much prefer it if you worked with me so we can both figure out the objective truth. I don’t want you to say I’m wrong, I want you to prove what I’m saying is wrong, as if you succeed in that I’ll know things better.
Again, though, a problem that can be solved is not a problem simply described as “people”, unless you are making a suggestion that mostly everyone finds disagreeable, such as denying the existence of others, or advocating a collective suicide pact.
Is it not more coherent to frame as an objective how people may live together, as people in society, pursuing their shared interests as people?
Consider an analogy. Suppose a bicycle breaks. Would it not be sensible to try to find the flaws in the structure, and to replace or to reconfigure the parts identified as broken?
Would you take the bicycle to a repair shop, expecting the proprietor to explain simply that the problem is “bicycles”?
Do you see the problem, with framing as a problem, that which is already given as unalterable?
Again, the problems people face is not “people”, but of how we may live as people.