Apple still sells expensive "Pro" computers with just 8GB of RAM and charges a fortune for more.

Apple has a memory problem and we’re all paying for it::Apple still sells expensive “Pro” computers with just 8GB of RAM and charges a fortune for more.

  • Pyro@lemmy.worldEnglish
    1143·
    1 year ago

    Alternate title: Apple charges fortune for underspecced machines, morons still buy them

    Please tell me, as someone who has not given Apple money in over a decade, how I am paying for this.

    • lorty@lemmy.mlEnglish
      15·
      1 year ago

      Apple fans will say with a straight face they can’t use anything other than a Mac.

  • carl_dungeon@lemmy.worldEnglish
    729·
    1 year ago

    Apple fan here, and I love what they’ve done with hardware the last few years. That said…. I have to agree. Base RAM config is silly low, and higher RAM and SSD configs are stupid expensive. It’s a money maker for sure, I wish it wasn’t so obviously a cash grab. I’d be ok with a bit more padding in the base hardware price if the ram wasn’t so expensive to upgrade.

    In the old days this was a moot point because you buy base config and immediately swap for after market big sticks- I did that for decades, but these days with soldered RAM and storage…. Eh, it’s a bit of a kick in the balls.

    I am stoked for my new M3 next week though, good thing work pays for it!

    • motor_spirit@lemmy.worldEnglish
      11·
      1 year ago

      Well I do think the high cost of expansion RAM in Apple products is tied to school shootings, gerrymandering, and the prison industrial complex.

    • frezik@midwest.socialEnglish
      2·
      1 year ago

      If I’m being generous, it’s macworld.com speaking to an audience of Apple users.

      But no, I am not paying for it. I’m over here drooling at M1 chips, but then stopping when I see the baggage that comes with it.

      • daqqad@lemmy.worldEnglish
        2·
        1 year ago

        Ms are only worth drooling over as far as power consumption. Relatively cheap 7840u outperforms M2 in every benchmark. I9s are just in a completely different league.

        I’ll wait for Snapdragon X Elite from a more reasonable company or a RISC-V chip in a Linux laptop if stars really align.

  • manmikey@lemmy.worldEnglish
    473·
    1 year ago

    The closing sentence of the article…

    “as Apple customers, we shouldn’t stand for it”

    Apple customers…

    “Here’s my $200”

  • just_another_person@lemmy.worldEnglish
    416·
    1 year ago

    Memory is memory. Apple’s attempt at branding these machines as “different” as if they were more efficient at using that memory, is absolutely fucking stupid. These Pro machines are used for large file operations like videos, and their response is simply “guess you need to pay more”.

    I feel like they’re trying to get back to the PPC days where generally available parts are not cheap. I hope plenty of cheap alternatives show up on Newegg or wherever. Fuck this bullshit.

    • Bobby Turkalino@lemmy.yachtsEnglish
      2012·
      1 year ago

      Memory is memory

      Definitely not true hardware-wise. L2 cache is different from DDR3 RAM is different from DDR4 RAM… in price and performance

      Software-wise, yes, the operating system abstracts away the differences and memory is memory

      Apple’s memory upgrade costs are probably 90% usual Apple bullshit pricing, 10% grounded in reality. I’m thinking that the 10% may be something like the motherboards are designed without memory upgrades in mind, so if you want more RAM, they have to use a special mobo which they prefab less of

      • just_another_person@lemmy.worldEnglish
        211·
        1 year ago

        Apple’s “memory upgrade” is making the claim that you can do with half for the same amount of work on x86. It is 100% untrue.

        You tried to delve into speed. But speed won’t outpace a 1TB video file you’re trying to edit. If you’re working with smaller chunks of smaller files that have fast operations ONLY, then make claim as such. This is a ploy for upgrade cash, plain and simple. Nothing about these chips moves the needle on memory usage BY HALF. What a dumbass thing to assert as a company.

        • DacoTaco@lemmy.worldEnglish
          6·
          1 year ago

          Apple’s claim isnt 100% untrue tbh. It depends on the operations actually. Arm processors have at least 12 registers to contain data or references to memory. A program does need more ram space on a x86 processor, as it only has like 4 registers afaik ( correct me if im wrong! ) so it needs to push data more often to the stack.

          This means that the m* processors has to generally save less info in memory. However, data is still data and you still need memory to contain the data youre processing so you still need the ram. So like, when doing video work that apple claim is utter bullshit. Raw calculations however might not be so much bullshit

          • Isycius@lemmy.caEnglish
            1·
            1 year ago

            For many memory intensive operation, this is incorrect since by that logic, Apple’s chip should use far more memory due to having quarter as many registers for those purpose. (32x64 vs. 32x256)

            Most processors have cache memories for reasons you stated.

      • rockSlayer@lemmy.worldEnglish
        145·
        1 year ago

        Memory speed doesn’t really matter if your apps start thrashing

        Edit: thrashing is very likely to occur on something marketed as “pro”. I have a work PC with 8gb of RAM, and my job requires me to edit video. I need to be careful on how big my video files are, because it WILL start thrashing. This is the reality. Professional apps require a lot of memory pages, and they are never open on their own.

        Edit 2: I guess the thoughts from a computer scientist are less important than corporate marketing.

      • Earthwormjim91@lemmy.worldEnglish
        95·
        1 year ago

        Apple uses a unified memory where the memory chips are embedded on the SoC in the first place. The memory modules are on the same silicon wafer the chip is cut from, not separately on the Mobo, and shared directly with the chip in a single pool of memory that the CPU and GPU can access, rather than dedicated memory for each.

        Changing the memory means cutting a different piece of silicon for it.

        • XGM@lemmy.worldEnglish
          91·
          1 year ago

          The SoC and memory are separate dies with different manufacturing processes. In the case of M2 it was TSMC for the SoC and SK Hynix for the memory.

          When it comes time to package them together, the SoC and memory are soldered to a interposer layer. So the only difference is which size memory chips they solder together for the different memory configurations available.

        • PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.worldEnglish
          82·
          1 year ago

          That’s like building a fast car that can only go straight. It’s impressive but short-sighted and therefore stupid.

          • bamboo@lemm.eeEnglish
            4·
            1 year ago

            There are specific performance benefits to soldering your memory to the board or making them part of the main die itself. It’s why GPUs have been doing it for a long time, and why laptops with soldered ram can often achieve higher clocks and lower latency than their socketed counterparts. It’s a tradeoff, but a calculated one. I’m sure Apple also adds the extra revenue from absurd upgrade costs into their calculations.

          • jaspersgroove@lemm.eeEnglish
            11·
            1 year ago

            Somebody has never been to a top fuel drag race. Impressive does not even begin to describe what those “fast cars that can only go straight” are capable of.

            • PlutoniumAcid@lemmy.worldEnglish
              3·
              1 year ago

              Ha ha. Most people don’t use their laptops exclusively for one single thing. I sometimes need a laptop that can go fast but more often it needs to be able to many different things. And some years later, let me swap in some more RAM and an SSD to give it another few good years.

        • TootGuitar@reddthat.comEnglish
          11·
          1 year ago

          Apple uses a unified memory where the memory chips are embedded on the SoC in the first place. The memory modules are on the same silicon wafer the chip is cut from, not separately on the Mobo

          This is 100% false. All Apple Silicon Macs use standard LPDDR4X or LPDDR5 memory chips, the same as are used in other computers, which are soldered on a PCB next to the SoC. They are not on the same die. The high memory bandwidth on M1/M2/M3 comes from having a lot of memory controllers built into the SoC – it’s akin to a PC with an 8+ channel memory setup. As far as I’m aware, there’s nothing technically preventing Apple from making an Apple Silicon mac with socketed memory again, other than those sweet sweet profits for shareholders.

      • Valmond@lemmy.mindoki.comEnglish
        11·
        1 year ago

        I mean why let them bullshit even 10% ?

        “There might be some hard to find small benefit here, maybe.”

        That just sounds like you want it to be true, but deep down you know it isn’t.

        Shit like this is apple play book from the nineties, especially “we need less ram” and “our clock cycles are better”.

        It wasn’t.

  • impiri@lemm.eeEnglish
    362·
    1 year ago

    I absolutely love Apple Silicon—the performance to power ratio is wonderful, and the high-speed memory makes things like LLMs work great—but the RAM upcharge is insane, and shipping anything “Pro” with 8GB of RAM should be criminal in 2023.

    I really hope that Qualcomm can make some noise with their new laptop/desktop processors. Anything to light a fire under Apple’s ass and make them stop skimping on RAM.

    • egerlach@lemmy.caEnglish
      4·
      1 year ago

      I cannot +1 this hard enough. There was once upon a time, back in the Darwin days, when I had my eyes on a Macbook as my next computer. Apple Silicon almost got me there again. I’m itching for a Snapdragon X Elite Oryon OMGLOLBBQ SBC, but I’m not holding my breath. I bet laptop makers snap up all the chips for 2024, and then I get one in 2025.

    • frezik@midwest.socialEnglish
      2·
      1 year ago

      Microsoft’s exclusivity deal with Qualcomm expires soon, so there should be more options coming around. After all this time, RISC will finally change everything (without getting into the technical details of how it did already).

    • khalic@lemmy.worldEnglish
      2·
      1 year ago

      I’ve been using an iPad with m1 for a while, can’t wait to get this power on a regular machine… but the ram price makes me want to wait another gen at least.

  • CoggyMcFee@lemmy.worldEnglish
    31·
    1 year ago

    It seemed obvious to me that they do this so that they can say the MBP costs “as low as X”, but in fact everyone needs to pay at least $200 more

    • Raiderkev@lemmy.worldEnglish
      34·
      1 year ago

      Well, every competitor to Apple used to have expandable storage on their flagship phones. Removable batteries too that were a breeze to replace if they went bad. They all copied apple, and terrible storage and glued in batteries that are hard to replace is standard now. U have to pay 100 x what a micro SD for the same amount of storage would be, and replacing a battery, while possible to do on your own now requires special knowledge and tools. If you’re building your own PC, it probably doesn’t affect your PC, but laptops have also followed suit. Glued in batteries/ hard drives are the norm, and it’s way harder to modify a shelf model laptop than it was 10 years ago. Apple is the King of enshittification. I’m so tired of companies copying them and all their greedy, customer fucking moves.

      • NIB@lemmy.worldEnglish
        53·
        1 year ago

        Modularity/expand-ability comes at a cost. Both monetary cost and performance cost. We used to have gpus with expandable memory but we dont anymore.

        Thats because by having the memory integrated into the board, we can put it much closer to the chip, greatly increasing the bandwidth and lowering the latency. This is exactly what Apple has done with its memory and why it isnt expandable anymore. Apple’s memory is 5x+ faster than ddr5 in terms of bandwidth. Also you fully take advantage of the entirety of the available memory bus, instead of having empty lanes chilling for potential upgrades.

        By having an integrated battery, you can have the battery have all kinds of wacky shapes that fill your design better.

        Having a microsd slot takes a lot of space and can result into a significant degraded user experience if the user uses a slow microsd. And even a fast microsd is slower than integrated storage.

        All these things are possible but they come with some sacrifices. Part of the change is because of enshittification but some changes is because they make sense.

        • betz24@lemmynsfw.comEnglish
          33·
          1 year ago

          Not sure why this user is getting down voted. They made valid points. I have been using Linux as a personal computer since the I was old enough to type, however, my job uses M1 macs. I can definitely say MacOS in terms of UX is a pain (especially without making some third party updates), but I cannot talk shit about the hardware performance.

          I initially grimaced when I received a 16GB RAM M1 computer from IT, however, the battery life along with the compute power has not failed me. I run 3D CAD, write software, and design simulation models and have been honestly amazed compared to my 64GB RAM + Nvidia GPU Linux computer.

          Everyone talks about Mac fanboys, but I think the anti-Mac fanboys are just as bad. Seem to automatically hate Apple stuff without even using it. If you take a look at what is going on (outside of Apple) with supercomputing and high speed serial links, you would understand why Apple is doing what it is.

            • betz24@lemmynsfw.comEnglish
              1·
              1 year ago

              I don’t work for Apple, so I don’t really know, but I have worked at many electronics companies. A few points:

              • Companies lock down or will open source IP (software/firmware/hardware) to meet a particular business strategy. In the mass product market, litigation is common for patent infringement so careful control is taken on each technology. I’m not sure I believe in opensourcing everything. Companies need to stay competitive. Behind a company is ten of thousands of employees that are being paid a livelihood (not just all developers making $250k+/yr, plenty other people in operations, quality, distribution, marketing etc)
              • Apple’s strategy is to build a vertically integrated tech stack internally that is aligned with their vision. This is their brand and the people who like the company vision will buy it. You don’t have to like all their choices, but they have done the math and have figured out the proper moving average between pissing off consumers and providing value to know where they stand. They like doing things the Apple way, ensure the company can continue to make money and innovate
              • You don’t have to buy the product. Just because you think the price is absurd doesn’t mean others can’t afford it. Personally, in the work I’m doing, my cheaper MacBook Air is having more value to me than my Linux computer I spent 3x more. The OP is designed for a specific type of user, it’s not meant for everyone. For work, I don’t need my computer to be opensource, I need it to work, so I can get my job done. For personal geekiness, I love the opensource nature of linux and have contributed to many projects, however, a company like Apple is definitely needed to make landmark improvements in technology. There is a reason why you go out to an Italian restaurant and get a $26 pasta dish when you can make it at home for $4.
              • In your thought process, hardware is hardware. But there is also a mission that is attached with it. Apple leads in terms of mitigation of environmental impact which I think is pretty cool. It offers buybacks for most (all ?) products. I don’t know how much they actually recycle per part or if things are just getting shipped off to Zambia and being sold as refurbished. If I’m paying a little more to benefit a company that aligns with my values than so be it. They aren’t going to sell a product for a loss (unless strategically). There are too many retirement funds in Apple for it to be losing money
                • betz24@lemmynsfw.comEnglish
                  1·
                  1 year ago

                  My friend, my goal is not to make you upset, just giving my thoughts. Your metaphors don’t exactly make sense in this context, and some of your responses are telescopic focusing on one thing when other companies do equal, nothing or worse. If you could name a company that is exceeding your expectations, I’d love to hear it as I would support them as well.

                  Regardless, I hope that you have a great day.

  • Snapz@lemmy.worldEnglish
    251·
    1 year ago

    RAM is boring… THE FINISH IS TITANIUM!!!

    THAT’S LITERALLY OUR ENTIRE MARKETING CAMPAIGN!

  • pachrist@lemmy.worldEnglish
    23·
    1 year ago

    I can’t believe that Apple would do this. It’s so not like them to cripple great machines with one horrendous bottleneck. Like could you imagine if they released an iMac in 2020 that they sold until the release of the M1 iMac that had a 1TB hard drive in it as a boot device? That’d be insane.

    • Ann Archy@lemmy.worldEnglish
      3·
      1 year ago

      Hah, I just wrote a comment about how they used to ship computers back in the 90’s that had resistors in them to make them slower, so they could sell cheaper “budget” versions of their faster computer models.

      This is a prime example of how capitalism “innovates”.

    • Obi@sopuli.xyzEnglish
      5·
      1 year ago

      Managed my whole life just fine without ever owning a single apple product.

      • Hadriscus@lemm.eeEnglish
        2·
        1 year ago

        back in the day my ipods each died within two weeks (original and replacement), I have not given a cent to this company since then