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US Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is gearing up for a potential Senate or presidential run in 2028, igniting excitement among progressives nationwide. #AOC2028
US Rep. Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez is gearing up for a potential Senate or presidential run in 2028, igniting excitement among progressives nationwide. #AOC2028
You are ascribing her motivations as helping Israel defend itself, without distancing yourself from them by condemning Israel as a genocidal state. Genocidal states don’t deserve self-defense or support of any kind. By echoing the sentiment without critiquing it, you are ceding ground to it.
She either is aware of what Israel is and decides to give it material support, which is genocide apologia, or she is not aware of what Israel is, as the livestreamer Congresswoman herself, which is genocide ignorance. I’m not sure which is worse.
I’m not about to post verbatim online how I think the Zionist entity (or any other belligerent reactionary state) should be treated by radicalized proles in the belly of the beast. I will lend critical support to the Islamists that actually fight against it, and I’ve given about a month of savings to Palestinian refugees via our direct aid comm. Maybe if I was some tycoon I would throw money at the Resistance. I disagree with the point that Israel will never not have missile defense. To reiterate, the condition of their missile defense depletion is what will end the genocide and the illegal occupation. The more defensive aid they get, the longer they will last. Perhaps it will run out after it’s already too late for anyone in Gaza, maybe it will run out after it’s too late for the West Bank too. But it will run out at some point.
Anyway, this is about AOC, and any other progressive or nominally socialist figure to hold state or national office. If our progressives don’t take progressive stances, what good are they? We have an ongoing paradigm of Democratic reps voting like Republicans, and Progressive Caucus reps voting like blue dogs, largely out of the false assumption about how conservative the electorate is. If a rep is going to not vote by their principled conscience because of party pressure or congressional norms or whatever undisclosed power, that is a failure and an obstacle to achieving the goal. If there is any possibility of making a consequential difference through the medium of electoralism, it hinges on a candidate sticking to their guns once they get elected. You can push through any progressive policy even if your adversaries control 49% of the vote. But if you cannot garner a vote from the people who are purportedly on your side, you cannot accomplish anything. An empty ally is more of a blow than a predictable enemy. You don’t win in politics by compromising with the adversary from start to finish, you win in politics by galvanizing your base and following through on your promises. This is why Democrats are consistently losing even when they win elections, and why Republicans are in full control of the country with a small minority of the populace. That’s my thesis and I’m sticking to it.
You have been saying “don’t focus on AOC, the vote you might have but didn’t get, focus on the Republicans, the votes you will never get”. I think that is misguided.
Principled stances are what makes a change. Buckling on a stance is what the conservatives would want. So I’m going to turn the “Republican” accusation you’ve leveled at people ITT right around on you, and say that Republicans are cheering every time a progressive Democrat adjusts to a more “moderate” stance.
We’ve already been over this, and it’s a complete non-sequitur. “Genocidal states” include every state that ever existed. If there are any exceptions, then I sure can’t think of them. Even if we only consider ongoing genocides, Russia, China, and I would argue the US (even unrelated to Israel) would not “deserve self-defense”.
You keep asserting this, but it clearly isn’t. However, if it is, then you are also guilty of the same. If enabling Israel to defend itself is supporting the genocide of Palestine, then preventing Israel from defending itself must be understood as supporting the genocide of Israel. If the withdraw of US support actually had the impact you imply, the lifespan of Israel would be the travel time of missiles from Iran. (Not that a lot of other missiles wouldn’t arrive first.) You can claim that Israel “deserves” it, but that would be providing a justification for genocide which would explicitly be genocide apologia. Just to be clear, this is in response to your statement that doesn’t deserve the ability to defend itself, not that the US should stop weapons shipments.
What the hell are you talking about. AOC takes lots of progressive stances. She does not, however, take the most progressive stance possible on every progressive issue.
Your thesis is pretty muddled. You seem to be under the impression that hyperbole can take the place of strong arguments. I don’t even disagree with the general direction of your “thesis”, but the amount of inaccurate conflation and hyperbolic generalizations makes it pretty incomprehensible. I promise you that I have personally made those arguments a whole lot better against supporters of the Democratic establishment. I have no problem at all with criticism of AOC, but the way you approach it isn’t going to convince anyone.
Not all by itself it doesn’t. AOC is probably gearing up for a run against Schumer. If you don’t think her replacing the most Zionist Democratic senator (or arguably the most Zionist Senator period) is going to be an earthquake against Israel, then I don’t know what to tell you.
You have not established that this is what AOC did. Her not supporting your stance (and mine) does not equate to “buckling”. She has her own principals, and what’s going on in Gaza is not the only relevant consideration. The amendment she voted against wouldn’t even have cut offensive weaponry, just iron dome, and AOC ultimately voted against the entire funding bill.
That’s so unbelievably facile, a complete semantic cop-out. “Oh, they all are genocidal.” Are we just going to dump every use of violence as genocide, or are we actually going to use meaningful definitions, like the intention, follow-through, and direct profit on killing a large fraction of a population or demographic?
You are both-sidesing this issue based on empty assumptions. If Israel stopped fighting, there would be peace through Israelis moving back. If the Resistance stopped fighting, they would all be exterminated. If you think it is permissible for Israel to defend itself while committing genocide, that is equivalent to permitting that genocide.
This is a baby-brained tu quoque, and borderline offensive. It is the same hasbara that Israel uses, saying “in their place they would kill us all too”. Iran and Palestine have never enacted a genocide on anyone. Ending a government is not genocide; ending a people is. The end of the State of Israel would mean a plurinational Palestine that included Jews as citizens with equal rights. Israelis mostly don’t die when missiles hit, they have bomb shelters to flee to and can easily leave the country. Palestinians have nowhere to go, only the land that they have continuously inhabited for millennia. A Resistance victory means a sort of Truth and Reconciliation commission, and an outcome like South Africa. An Israeli victory means the death of all Palestinians in Palestine, they say this in all corners of Israeli society every day.
You don’t seize the party leader position by defeating the party leader. AOC taking Schumer’s seat would result in 2 nominally democratic socialists in the Senate. But what good would it do if they don’t vote differently? An earthquake is when something big shifts and changes things. Two dissenting votes is not an earthquake. More specifically, in Israel’s case, two senators that vote against offensive weapons but support defensive weapons would be completely without consequence. It doesn’t matter which of the 99 Zionist senators you dislodge, especially when you vote alongside the Zionists on the most consequential thing.
AOC already has a track record of pivoting toward the center, it didn’t start with this issue. As soon as 2021 she was already disappointing with how much she was compromising on.
You have addressed nothing about my core assertion that coherent appeals and consistency and follow-through is what wins elections. Our 2 most influential presidents each lost the popular vote, had a popularity below 35%, and had a base of around 15% of American society. You don’t win by being the closest to the middle of the seesaw, you win by giving people a reason to rally around you.
I don’t expect the Democrats to learn anything about winning in politics. They are nothing but careerists and fundraisers. And at this point I don’t expect to get anything through to you, or even treat you as serious.
No we aren’t, and no I didn’t. History is packed with countries doing genocides, either of local populations or as part of a colonial project. Russia is currently committing genocide against ethic Ukrainians. China is currently committing genocide against the Uyghurs. I would argue that the US genocide of native Americans never ended, and the current Hispanic purge is clearly going well beyond just undocumented immigrants.
You are almost certainly correct. It just has nothing to do with your assertion that they should lose the ability to defend themselves.
The resistance is unfortunately pretty irrelevant at this point. This is low key feeding Israeli propaganda that what’s going on is a war.
Calling you a genocide apologist is only borderline offensive? Anyways, since my position is that AOC is not a genocide apologist, this isn’t a “you also” it’s a “just you”.
And? You think Iran (and others) are only interested in ending the Israeli government? Please. The fact that Israel is evil doesn’t make all of Israel’s enemies good. As much as Oct 7 has been abused to justify genocide, it’s a fact that the attacks were focused on civilians, not military or symbols of the Israeli government.
No, you do seize momentum though. A plucky progressive knocking out the highest ranking public face of the Democratic establishment is a pretty big deal. How do you think we get to 3 democratic socialists in the Senate? And again, I have to point out your ridiculous hyperbole. Are you really ignorant enough to think that AOC and Bernie don’t vote differently? Are you really ignorant enough to think that voting is the only tool they have to drive change? A tiny number of progressives in congress have been able to drag the Democrats left on a bunch of issues. You don’t approve of one vote on one amendment that wouldn’t pass anyways for a bill that she also voted against.
Agreeing with it isn’t addressing it? OK. I guess I have to remind you again that there are exactly two claims you made that I disagree with, and that this is irrelevant to both. No, AOC isn’t perfect. No, I don’t have any problem with productive criticism of AOC. Calling her a genocide apologist and claiming that she is complicit in genocide based on a bill she actually voted against is not productive criticism. Hyperbolic bullshit is just going to marginalize you. Why the fuck would AOC ever take you seriously?
With that, I’m done. Go ahead and close it out if you want.
The tu quoque is saying that Palestinians/Iranians are poised to genocide Israelis. This is reactionary garbage without precedent or evidence, Israeli hasbara propaganda that you are echoing point-for-point. The genocide in Gaza is the most flagrant and clear example since 1994, if not since 1945. Little else this century even comes close. Giving defensive weapons to Israel is like giving anti-aircraft weapons to Nazi Germany’s Eastern Front. That is what AOC, along with 400+ representatives in the imperial center, voted to do. It’s meaningless to say that “she made no pro-genocide arguments” when she made a very clear pro-genocide vote. There is no purely diplomatic solution without violence, and only a few delusional people in the Global North fail to understand that.
Your awareness of the world is a fabrication of the State department. If you were honest in talking about Russian genocidal actions, you would have mentioned Chechnya, not Ukraine. Mentioning the Uighurs (who have been targets of surveillance and mass incarceration to a lesser degree than African Americans, not genocided) and leaving out the more dramatic case of the Rohingya is clown shit. Do you pay any attention to news on Earth beyond what the CIA rubber-stamps?
You have an amnesic reading of politics. AOC herself got the same criticism for supporting Sunrise’s sit-ins of Nancy Pelosi’s office. What did the establishment Democrat respond with? Each part of your line of reasoning. The DCCC has been fighting the progressive wing categorically harder than it fights Republicans, from 2016 to 2020 to this year’s mayoral elections.
Seizing momentum means nothing if that momentum doesn’t convert into anything. If you seek to change the Democrats from within without pitching a fundamentally oppositional fight, the party will prevail over the individual. There’s a reason why they call it the Iron Law of Institutions.
I don’t think you “share my view” or “agree with me” on having a different stance than AOC. You don’t distance yourself from someone by defending all of their positions. You’ve admitted to being a compromising tailist. There’s no use talking about “democratic socialists in the House” when you use it as a label with no rigorous definition. On the other hand, the Democratic Socialists of America, a party I’m a member of, has clearly denounced all aid to Israel and distanced itself from AOC, with a supermajority in favor of strict BDS. Arguing against this makes you a right-wing, anti-progress, conservative Democrat. Have fun retreating back to your comfortable political non-position and being on the wrong side of history.
I’m not even certain you’re not a bot, latching onto keywords and outputting a canned response that ignores central points and doesn’t follow the course of argument.