I’m going to copy WoodScientist’s post. Don’t know how to tag, sorry, but credit goes to him for this.
"I would say that jury nullification isn’t just some accident of the legal system, but the primary reason we have juries in the first place.
Judges will say that juries are meant to just decide the simple facts of the case. But what sane person would ever design a system that assigns 12 random untrained nobodies to do that task? If all that mattered was judging the facts of the case, why not have 12 legal scholars instead? Why isn’t “juror” a profession, just like being a lawyer or judge is? If we want people to just apply the letter of the law to the facts of a case, why not fill juries with professionals, each who had a legal degree, and who have sat as jurors hundreds of times? Judging evidence and reading law is a skill. And it’s one that can be educated on, trained, and practiced. Why do we have amateur juries, when professional juries would clearly do their purported job so much better? Or why not just do what some countries do, and have most or all trials decided solely by judges? What exactly is the point of a jury? Compared to everything else in the courtroom, the jurors, the ones actually deciding guilt or innocence, are a bunch of untrained amateurs. On its face, it makes no damn sense!
No, the true reason, and really the only reason, we have juries at all is so that juries can serve to judge both the accused AND the law. Juries are meant to be the final line of defense against unjust laws and prosecution. It is possible for a law itself to be criminal or corrupt. Legislative systems can easily be taken over by a tiny wealthy or powerful minority of the population, and they can end up passing laws criminalizing behaviors that the vast majority of the population don’t even consider to be crimes.
The entire purpose of having a jury is that it places the final power of guilt and innocence directly in the hands of the people. Juries are meant as a final line of defense against corrupt laws passed by a minority against the wishes of the greater majority. An unaccountable elite can pass whatever ridiculous self-serving laws they want. But if the common people simply refuse to uphold those laws in the jury box, those laws are meaningless.
THAT is the purpose of a jury. It is the only reason juries are worth the trouble. A bunch of rank amateurs will never be able to judge the facts of a case better than actual trained legal scholars with years of experience. But by empowering juries, it places the final authority of the law firmly in the hands of the people. That is the value of having a jury at all.
Jury nullification is not just some strange quirk or odd loophole in our justice system. It’s the entire reason we have juries in the first place."
This is just more words saying the same thing - that jurors should just make up the law based on the vibe of the case. It’s absurd to me that so many people in these threads complain that the legal system is unfair, and in the next breath propose that citizens should be able to set aside the law in specific situations because of the feels.
That is the antithesis of a fair and just system and honestly it’s exasperating rehashing the same concept over and over.
The answer to why guilt is determined by a jury of your peers is that it avoids having a judiciary that can charge, convict, and sentence a defendant. That seems patently obvious to me.
You need to be found guilty of the charges against you by a jury of your peers. The whole point is that the jury is not experienced in law, and interprets the facts and evidence as any reasonable third party would.
Juries are not appropriately positioned to determine a sentence because they are not experienced and have no frame of reference.
It’s telling that in these threads my comments are awash with downvotes but no one can provide an actual rebuttal.
Basically, people just don’t want luigi to be punished for murdering a shitty CEO. Sadly, that doesn’t make jury nullification a legitimate course of action.
You’re missing the point, especially if you think a fair and just system even exists within the US. If you want to take the stance that “murder is illegal”, sure, what he did was illegal. Jury nullification is a way we peons can still hold an iota of power. It’s spitting in the face of unjust systems.
Let me ask you this. Would you prefer a situation in which Luigi was convicted for murder, sentenced to life in prison, and the system never changes? Or would you prefer a situation in which exceptions are given in exceptional circumstances in an attempt to change a fundamentally broken system?
If your answer is the former, you might just want to apply at United and work your way up.
I find it bizarre that anyone could honestly think that a broken system could be improved by allowing 12 random people to make exceptions in exceptional circumstances. Sorry but it’s difficult to say anything charitable about that opinion.
Every case is exceptional, and we have a complex process for weighing the circumstances and determining the least-bad outcome.
You can look at Luigi’s case and say “this victim deserved to die therefore Luigi should not be punished”, but what is the consequence of that? How many people will be murdered that don’t really deserve to die? How many murderers who deserve to be punished will not be?
Its because you dont build systems. Random selection is a corner stone of building systems that are reliable and resilient to bad actors in positions of authority or trying to abuse systematic weaknesses.
You dismiss vibes but the whole concept of vibes is when people as a group that a situation is good/bad. Its an incredibly useful barometer for legal matters.
Your adherence to ‘laws’ is hilarious once you consider who is currently writing the laws. Laws are not some moral guidepost, they’re a set of rules put down by those in power which often means they benefit those same individuals and not necessarily that the laws are actually good.
Sending a parent of 3 to jail for weed is hilariously stupid. But we literally did that for two generations. And we still do it for things like shrooms
Can it result in bad outcomes? Absolutely. But it can also correct grave injustice.
Edit: fun fact i use ‘vibes’ when designing defense systems for software environments.
I actually design the system to pool clients into randomly distributed groups and use that to winnow badly acting connections without impeding the majority of connections or having to individually track each connections behavior.
The ‘vibe’ is the pooled behavior of many connections that ends up getting restricted and shuffled so at each tier you narrow on the bad actors while releasing the good actors back into the general pop. Some connections get punished unjustily but its often short periods with quick resolutions.
You can think of a jury as that judgement of that pool of potential bad actors:
the defendent
the judicial system (judges, attorney generals, etc)
the legislature (the laws themselves)
the executive (arresting officer)
Nullification is the ability to prevent a corrupt/captured legislature from having laws applied in a manner that is functionally a bad idea/improper.
But make no mistake each one of those agents in the system need to be checked and thats the role of a jury.
You’re correct in that the jury prevents a corrupt government from convicting innocent people.
That’s why a jury’s role is to return a verdict of guilty or not guilty. You will note there’s no third option for a jury to return a verdict of “guilty but exempt”.
Do you really want a court system where 12 idiots decide whether the law should apply? That’s the antithesis of a fair and just legal system.
it covers everything you’ve said. it doesn’t support it. those are two very different things. It also covers a fair amount of the position people like myself hold.
Do you really want a court system where 12 idiots decide whether the law should apply?
Yes. and fun fact we already do, the only way for us to not have it is to do away with juries of ones peers entirely. shrug as I said having random people in the process inoculates it from a ton of problems. move long now. you’re:
not going to be able to prove your claims about it being the antithesis of a fair and just legal system.
I’ve thought about this far longer than you have there isnt a new argument you can put before me that would sway the outcome of this discussion.
you’re clearly one of the idiots by labelling the entire population as idiots.
Juries decide whether defendants are guilty of the charges against them. They do not decide whether the law ought to apply. If you don’t understand the difference then you’re right… I’m not going to be able to put an argument before you that you’ll be able to comprehend.
It’s patently obvious to everyone that a fair and just system of laws needs to apply equally to everyone, even in cases where we dislike the victim.
It’s patently obvious to everyone that a fair and just system of laws needs to apply equally to everyone, even in cases where we dislike the victim.
Who said anything about not applying the laws equally? (fun fact: there is a difference between equal and fair; I believe laws should be applied fairly not equally) if a law is unjust or does has mitigating circumstances (brian thompson decisions resulting is untold amounts of pain/suffering/death for millions of individuals) you ‘equally’ refuse to allow the punishment of defendant by returning a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Luigi was acting in self defense; which is a common defense for when someone gets killed and the defendant was acting within their rights. Its the jury’s job to recognize that convicting luigi of murder is incorrect due to the circumstances and make sure the proper verdict is handed down. ‘not guilty’, regardless of the letter of the law.
pretty simple. again, as i told you earlier I’ve thought about this a lot longer than you have. Its also pretty clear you have no experience in designing systems that need to deal with adverse actors. and that you’re generally an asshole thinking everyone on a jury is an idiot and that you’re probably one of those idiots thinking people need to specialize in law to know right from wrong.
I’m going to copy WoodScientist’s post. Don’t know how to tag, sorry, but credit goes to him for this.
"I would say that jury nullification isn’t just some accident of the legal system, but the primary reason we have juries in the first place.
Judges will say that juries are meant to just decide the simple facts of the case. But what sane person would ever design a system that assigns 12 random untrained nobodies to do that task? If all that mattered was judging the facts of the case, why not have 12 legal scholars instead? Why isn’t “juror” a profession, just like being a lawyer or judge is? If we want people to just apply the letter of the law to the facts of a case, why not fill juries with professionals, each who had a legal degree, and who have sat as jurors hundreds of times? Judging evidence and reading law is a skill. And it’s one that can be educated on, trained, and practiced. Why do we have amateur juries, when professional juries would clearly do their purported job so much better? Or why not just do what some countries do, and have most or all trials decided solely by judges? What exactly is the point of a jury? Compared to everything else in the courtroom, the jurors, the ones actually deciding guilt or innocence, are a bunch of untrained amateurs. On its face, it makes no damn sense!
No, the true reason, and really the only reason, we have juries at all is so that juries can serve to judge both the accused AND the law. Juries are meant to be the final line of defense against unjust laws and prosecution. It is possible for a law itself to be criminal or corrupt. Legislative systems can easily be taken over by a tiny wealthy or powerful minority of the population, and they can end up passing laws criminalizing behaviors that the vast majority of the population don’t even consider to be crimes.
The entire purpose of having a jury is that it places the final power of guilt and innocence directly in the hands of the people. Juries are meant as a final line of defense against corrupt laws passed by a minority against the wishes of the greater majority. An unaccountable elite can pass whatever ridiculous self-serving laws they want. But if the common people simply refuse to uphold those laws in the jury box, those laws are meaningless.
THAT is the purpose of a jury. It is the only reason juries are worth the trouble. A bunch of rank amateurs will never be able to judge the facts of a case better than actual trained legal scholars with years of experience. But by empowering juries, it places the final authority of the law firmly in the hands of the people. That is the value of having a jury at all.
Jury nullification is not just some strange quirk or odd loophole in our justice system. It’s the entire reason we have juries in the first place."
Oh boy… Very sane people would assign twelve random people to a lot of things.
Fun fact doing that prevents the ability of fascists and other authoriarians from stacking the system to get the outcome they want.
You dont need to be an expert in law to determine if a person needs to be punished.
There are a bunch of wonderful ways to build reliable, durable, and performant systems using random selection as a foundational corner stone.
This is just more words saying the same thing - that jurors should just make up the law based on the vibe of the case. It’s absurd to me that so many people in these threads complain that the legal system is unfair, and in the next breath propose that citizens should be able to set aside the law in specific situations because of the feels.
That is the antithesis of a fair and just system and honestly it’s exasperating rehashing the same concept over and over.
The answer to why guilt is determined by a jury of your peers is that it avoids having a judiciary that can charge, convict, and sentence a defendant. That seems patently obvious to me.
You need to be found guilty of the charges against you by a jury of your peers. The whole point is that the jury is not experienced in law, and interprets the facts and evidence as any reasonable third party would.
Juries are not appropriately positioned to determine a sentence because they are not experienced and have no frame of reference.
It’s telling that in these threads my comments are awash with downvotes but no one can provide an actual rebuttal.
Basically, people just don’t want luigi to be punished for murdering a shitty CEO. Sadly, that doesn’t make jury nullification a legitimate course of action.
You’re missing the point, especially if you think a fair and just system even exists within the US. If you want to take the stance that “murder is illegal”, sure, what he did was illegal. Jury nullification is a way we peons can still hold an iota of power. It’s spitting in the face of unjust systems.
Let me ask you this. Would you prefer a situation in which Luigi was convicted for murder, sentenced to life in prison, and the system never changes? Or would you prefer a situation in which exceptions are given in exceptional circumstances in an attempt to change a fundamentally broken system?
If your answer is the former, you might just want to apply at United and work your way up.
I guess this is the core of the issue.
I find it bizarre that anyone could honestly think that a broken system could be improved by allowing 12 random people to make exceptions in exceptional circumstances. Sorry but it’s difficult to say anything charitable about that opinion.
Every case is exceptional, and we have a complex process for weighing the circumstances and determining the least-bad outcome.
You can look at Luigi’s case and say “this victim deserved to die therefore Luigi should not be punished”, but what is the consequence of that? How many people will be murdered that don’t really deserve to die? How many murderers who deserve to be punished will not be?
Its because you dont build systems. Random selection is a corner stone of building systems that are reliable and resilient to bad actors in positions of authority or trying to abuse systematic weaknesses.
You dismiss vibes but the whole concept of vibes is when people as a group that a situation is good/bad. Its an incredibly useful barometer for legal matters.
Your adherence to ‘laws’ is hilarious once you consider who is currently writing the laws. Laws are not some moral guidepost, they’re a set of rules put down by those in power which often means they benefit those same individuals and not necessarily that the laws are actually good.
Sending a parent of 3 to jail for weed is hilariously stupid. But we literally did that for two generations. And we still do it for things like shrooms
Can it result in bad outcomes? Absolutely. But it can also correct grave injustice.
Edit: fun fact i use ‘vibes’ when designing defense systems for software environments.
I actually design the system to pool clients into randomly distributed groups and use that to winnow badly acting connections without impeding the majority of connections or having to individually track each connections behavior.
The ‘vibe’ is the pooled behavior of many connections that ends up getting restricted and shuffled so at each tier you narrow on the bad actors while releasing the good actors back into the general pop. Some connections get punished unjustily but its often short periods with quick resolutions.
You can think of a jury as that judgement of that pool of potential bad actors:
Nullification is the ability to prevent a corrupt/captured legislature from having laws applied in a manner that is functionally a bad idea/improper.
But make no mistake each one of those agents in the system need to be checked and thats the role of a jury.
You’re correct in that the jury prevents a corrupt government from convicting innocent people.
That’s why a jury’s role is to return a verdict of guilty or not guilty. You will note there’s no third option for a jury to return a verdict of “guilty but exempt”.
Do you really want a court system where 12 idiots decide whether the law should apply? That’s the antithesis of a fair and just legal system.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jury_nullification
If you actually read the wiki page, you will find it supports everything I’ve said.
it covers everything you’ve said. it doesn’t support it. those are two very different things. It also covers a fair amount of the position people like myself hold.
Yes. and fun fact we already do, the only way for us to not have it is to do away with juries of ones peers entirely. shrug as I said having random people in the process inoculates it from a ton of problems. move long now. you’re:
Juries decide whether defendants are guilty of the charges against them. They do not decide whether the law ought to apply. If you don’t understand the difference then you’re right… I’m not going to be able to put an argument before you that you’ll be able to comprehend.
It’s patently obvious to everyone that a fair and just system of laws needs to apply equally to everyone, even in cases where we dislike the victim.
Who said anything about not applying the laws equally? (fun fact: there is a difference between equal and fair; I believe laws should be applied fairly not equally) if a law is unjust or does has mitigating circumstances (brian thompson decisions resulting is untold amounts of pain/suffering/death for millions of individuals) you ‘equally’ refuse to allow the punishment of defendant by returning a ‘not guilty’ verdict. Luigi was acting in self defense; which is a common defense for when someone gets killed and the defendant was acting within their rights. Its the jury’s job to recognize that convicting luigi of murder is incorrect due to the circumstances and make sure the proper verdict is handed down. ‘not guilty’, regardless of the letter of the law.
pretty simple. again, as i told you earlier I’ve thought about this a lot longer than you have. Its also pretty clear you have no experience in designing systems that need to deal with adverse actors. and that you’re generally an asshole thinking everyone on a jury is an idiot and that you’re probably one of those idiots thinking people need to specialize in law to know right from wrong.
I can provide no further information that is going to help you see the point.
God speed.
I could say the same to everyone who has replied to me in this thread.
Please continue believing that things would be better with a vibe-based legal process.
Also godspeed is one word.