I was taught that lying is a sin and if I do it I will burn in hell for all enteeity. Also, that it is expected that I lie on basically every form I’m provided, mostly by ommission but other ways too.
Isn’t it annoying that the majority of time when it is pointed out that an entire system is based on lying and misrepresentation that the excuse is either ‘that’s just how it is’ or ‘everyone does it’ as if that makes it right somehow.
Neurotypical just seems to be going along with everyone else’s bullshit to avoid conflict.
I think when people say “it’s how it is” or “everyone does it”, it’s more of a pragmatic way to cope. End of the day, we gotta have food, shelter, and entertainment. If only shitheads lie, they’ll be the only one to be successful. One person on the bottom being honest won’t change a system with ages of momentum
The calculus is if I value truth telling over my mortgage? Vast majority of the time, my mortgage wins.
That’s the whole communication gap. When allistic people talk they will almost always lie or say something other than what they mean, which gives the other person the opportunity to lie or ignore what they meant if it suits them. This is what’s known as being “polite.”
For example, it may say “minimum requirements” on the web form, but let’s put ourselves into the shoes of the person filling it out. Are they SUPER strict on these minimums? Or are they just filling out the form the best they can?
Usually it says sobering along the lines of “ideal candidates” and not “bare minimum” but you likely won’t see that due to overly rigid views on the world.
What if they made a mistake when filling it out, and added things to the “bare minimum “ that aren’t really that harsh a requirement?
It’s a grey area, it’s not a direct lie and you know that, you just don’t like it.
Saying it’s a lie assumes you know the intention of the person writing it, and that they intended to deceive you. And you can’t possibly know that either.
It’s Not a lie and you’re misrepresenting your knowledge of the scenario when you say that.
NT people lie and or talk around what they mean rather than say it directly. Neurodivergent people, especially autistic people, are not like this and find it taxing to deal with.
That doesn’t make any sense. Yes, I have ADHD and not ASD, so yes I have a slightly easier time with social interactions, but NT don’t lie or avoid direct language. They try to minimize the harm of their words.
That’s like me stating that ND people lack empathy, and they are insulting because they don’t care about the other person’s feelings.
I think if you look for it you will see it more often. I also think most NT don’t notice when they do it because it’s second nature. Sure there are white lies, small lies, and then more nefarious lies. It’s still a core part of “normal” communication. Add in the indirect speech and every meaningful conversation is like a game where no one says what they actually mean.
My challenge to your thinking is that a lie requires intent. My ex lied about cheating on me when I had the screenshot of her admitting it in my hands. I knew it was a lie, I had the evidence. She lied anyway because it made her feel better (actually she stated it because to her we “weren’t together anymore”).
The intent behind nuanced speech and carefully chosen words isn’t to deceive, it’s to help the other come to the conclusion on their own. A jarring direct statement causes emotional disregulation and clouds reasoning. Being direct all the time leads to the other party rejecting your statements even if they are undoubtedly true.
I find it concerning that lying is apparently always an option for NTs.
I was taught that lying is a sin and if I do it I will burn in hell for all enteeity. Also, that it is expected that I lie on basically every form I’m provided, mostly by ommission but other ways too.
There’s a reason I rarely feel hopeful.
I’m autistic and lying is always an option for me too. I’m extremely good at it. I just don’t do it, because it’s wrong and harmful.
Isn’t it annoying that the majority of time when it is pointed out that an entire system is based on lying and misrepresentation that the excuse is either ‘that’s just how it is’ or ‘everyone does it’ as if that makes it right somehow.
Neurotypical just seems to be going along with everyone else’s bullshit to avoid conflict.
Many people mistake cowardice for wisdom.
I think when people say “it’s how it is” or “everyone does it”, it’s more of a pragmatic way to cope. End of the day, we gotta have food, shelter, and entertainment. If only shitheads lie, they’ll be the only one to be successful. One person on the bottom being honest won’t change a system with ages of momentum
The calculus is if I value truth telling over my mortgage? Vast majority of the time, my mortgage wins.
That’s the whole communication gap. When allistic people talk they will almost always lie or say something other than what they mean, which gives the other person the opportunity to lie or ignore what they meant if it suits them. This is what’s known as being “polite.”
That’s an intentionally rigid view of the world.
The communication gap is that rigidity.
For example, it may say “minimum requirements” on the web form, but let’s put ourselves into the shoes of the person filling it out. Are they SUPER strict on these minimums? Or are they just filling out the form the best they can?
Usually it says sobering along the lines of “ideal candidates” and not “bare minimum” but you likely won’t see that due to overly rigid views on the world.
What if they made a mistake when filling it out, and added things to the “bare minimum “ that aren’t really that harsh a requirement?
It’s a grey area, it’s not a direct lie and you know that, you just don’t like it.
Saying it’s a lie assumes you know the intention of the person writing it, and that they intended to deceive you. And you can’t possibly know that either.
It’s Not a lie and you’re misrepresenting your knowledge of the scenario when you say that.
As an autistic I resolve this in my head by reminding myself that words can have different meanings.
For example
(“How are you?” -> “I’m fine how are you?” -> “Doing well, thanks”)
actually means
(“hello” -> “hello”)
It’s code. The meaning is precise, and it’s not a false question. It’s a symbolic question.
It’s an equivalent meaning in the same way that:
(“hola” -> “hola”)
means the same thing as
(“hello” -> “hello”)
English is, therefore, not just one language. English is many languages using the same set of words.
Beautiful and thoughtful response.
I’m peak ADHD, and I often use the same type of thing
Wait hold on.
Are you saying NT lie all the time or ND lie all the time?
Because neither of those is true?
Or if it is, it explains my ex a whole lot better
NT people lie and or talk around what they mean rather than say it directly. Neurodivergent people, especially autistic people, are not like this and find it taxing to deal with.
That doesn’t make any sense. Yes, I have ADHD and not ASD, so yes I have a slightly easier time with social interactions, but NT don’t lie or avoid direct language. They try to minimize the harm of their words.
That’s like me stating that ND people lack empathy, and they are insulting because they don’t care about the other person’s feelings.
I think if you look for it you will see it more often. I also think most NT don’t notice when they do it because it’s second nature. Sure there are white lies, small lies, and then more nefarious lies. It’s still a core part of “normal” communication. Add in the indirect speech and every meaningful conversation is like a game where no one says what they actually mean.
Ok, I see where you are coming from.
My challenge to your thinking is that a lie requires intent. My ex lied about cheating on me when I had the screenshot of her admitting it in my hands. I knew it was a lie, I had the evidence. She lied anyway because it made her feel better (actually she stated it because to her we “weren’t together anymore”).
The intent behind nuanced speech and carefully chosen words isn’t to deceive, it’s to help the other come to the conclusion on their own. A jarring direct statement causes emotional disregulation and clouds reasoning. Being direct all the time leads to the other party rejecting your statements even if they are undoubtedly true.
…and the rules change at a whim, it is never consistent…
Plus they vary massively from culture to culture and region to region, but are all treated as the right way to behave.