Waow. Pretty antisemitic of those rabbis, if you ask me.
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Are you saying that Judaism is an inherently genocidal religion/culture?
I assume it’s more of a generic internet atheist “religion bad” sort of critique
Straight up Sam Harris grade bullshit except directed at Judaism. All his beliefs just the opposite target lol
Not any more than other religions, but yes, it’s in the book preached as the word of God and prophets. Israel is what happens when you put bronze age values in practice
Not any more than other religions
Because atheists never, ever, do terrible things. They are too enlightened by their intelligence, which is why the ruling class in Silicon Valley are so busy improving society somewhat and not being war profiteers naming their war profiteering corporations after fantasy fiction concepts.
atheists generally don’t do horrible things in the ideological name of not believing in god. it would be nice if discarding religion also made you discard capitalism, white supremacy, chauvinism, or believing in bigfoot and psychics; but there’s nothing forcing atheists to be humanists or skeptics or to become comrades.
ditching religion only takes away one lever western culture uses to propagate evil, but it does take away one lever.
Since when was nonreligious people doing horrible things in the name of atheism ever even a thing? They can do it for other reasons, and religious people did too. You’re mistaking the cover for the motivation.
This pure idealist Sam Harris-style Islamophobia logic turned toward Judaism. You’re wrong for the same reason he’s wrong about Islam.
what happens when you put bronze age morals in practice
Is this 2006? I thought Nu Atheism was over lol. You must be the last holdout for that cringe ass, warmed over racist bullshit
This particular person is from .ml but honestly I’ve seen this kind of rhetoric popping up a lot recently on Hexbear and it’s frustrating.
If you have hatred and contempt in your heart for all religious people, you hate and despise the global proletariat.
Once, I was on a bus with a typical Chick-tract distributing fundamentalist. I was polite, so he was polite, (Chick tracts are fucking hilarious so I accepted the one he offered me), so I made some small talk.
The thing he said that stood out to me most before the bus reached my stop was “do you know that if everyone was Christian, there would be no more war?”
That’s bullshit, of course, and medieval Europe alone disproves that. But then I realized a lot of smug atheists have the same belief: if only religion vanished tomorrow, surely war and other problems would just vanish in a puff of euphoria. Also bullshit.
Yeah there’s a big difference between believing im secularism and wanting the liberation of people from religious oppression and hating religious people, as well as blaming religion (or bronze age morality) for things caused by modern colonialism and imperialism.
hatred and contempt
This is a problem. Anything coming from hatred is not coming from a good place.
However, I do have a problem with what monotheism did to the world as a colonising force.
We have depictions of full genocide in the Torah due to a chosen people doctrine (remember, at this time gendercide was nearly the exclusive form of genocide). We had Christians take this after Constantine to take a proselytising mission and turn it into an imperial casus belli. We saw the same with the formation and expansion that lead to the Golden Age of Islam.
While religious tolerance and practices have an increased amount of personal choice now in the “Western” world, that does not mean that the institution that they inherent aren’t any more colonial now then they were then. They are ideas that replaced other ideas, often through a theology of “god strengthens my arm and weakens the heathens, so might makes right”.
It’s not hatred for any set belief, but the “In” and “Out” groups created by “chosen people” dynamics that are inherent within monotheistic religion. They have always been used to perpetuate division among the “foreign”, wealth for an elite, and loyalty from the masses.
[Edited to clarify the last paragraph]
I think you need to be careful with throwing around “choseness” in this way because this is the exact perversion of the Jewish concept of choseness set forth in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion and Mein Kampf. I’m not trying to let Judaism off the hook for its genuine reactionary and regressive components (particularly with respect to women and non-normative sexuality), but it really muddies the waters when you overlay it with full-throated anti-Jewish projection onto Judaism.
Not really? There is an in-group (Jews) and an out-group (non-Jews, or Gentiles). The same applies for all monotheistic religions in a way that doesn’t gel with the fabric of polytheism. These concepts, over centuries and through different forms (especially Christianity for the “West”) were used to subjugate people by creating these in-groups and out-groups (to the point that the earliest use of the star of David to highlight the Jewish population I know of was done in England by Simon De Montfort (though I’m not an expert)).
That legacy still exists today and the institutions of wealth and (especially in places like the UK & Iran) governance. It’s a legacy of us vs them and colonialism that needs to be examined.
Okay, to be clear, in the discussion you’re jumping into, one of the interlocutors has stated that Jews are inherently genocidal.
I’m an atheist and I don’t particularly value religion but I do value people and there are many good people who do value their religion and I won’t stand for them being painted as inherently genocidal and neither should you.
There’s a time and place for nuance but I don’t know that this is it.
I’m saying the entire structure of monotheism has created a system of colonial thought and destruction across much of the world. Even the good theists I have met (and I have met many) will think less of or sorry for someone in the out group.
It’s not Judaism, it’s not Islam, it’s not Christianity: it is the colonial ideology embedded in these ideologies that I’m saying are a negative force on the planet.
I was replying directly to the comment above, not so much the context. You are right to point that out.
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I’m sorry, but I was raised by them. I saw people indoctrinated into believing North African religions were Satan worship who wants to harm Good Christians, that women don’t have reproductive rights and that gay and trans people are scum. Liberation of the proletariat does not exist without liberation from religion.
I was raised by evangelicals myself, and also went through a nu atheist phase when I was 14.
You’re a bigot and you need to grow up and put that away.
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I’m sorry
You’re not.
Welcome to the reddit nu atheist pile on. I was not expecting antisemitic Sam Harris to be a thing, but here it is
You know, I said that on a whim, but on second thought I am. I would rather not argue with people I think are cool, but in my view, religion, as an institution, proliferates and helps perpetuate hatred. It’s not the only one, and it’s often a tool for others to do that. But I’m conviced it’s an outdated institution we (in general, not each specific person) would be better off casting away.
So you don’t think religion plays a part in the Israeli genocide of Palestinians and the American public’s support of the genocide?
Also, not atheist.
I think religion is one of the primary factors for how powerful and stalwart the resistance is against said genocide. What would you say about the only major defenders of the Palestinians being all Islamic?
I say that mostly Islamic people are the only ones not failing Palestinian people.
You don’t have to be athiest to espouse cringe ass nu athiest thought. #1 the idealist delusion that religion and thought dictates actions and reality and not the other way around.
The genocide is not caused by religion or “bronze age morality” any more than genicide is caused by individual rascist thoughts or beliefs. Isreal is a settler-colonial project and an extension of US imperialism. That’s what is driving the genocide, not bronze age morality.
No, a ton of Israelis are secular and they support this just as much as religious Israelis, and this is clearly about land and wealth. The American government is supporting the genocide, and it has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with supporting a white supremacist settler colony that functions as an unsinkable aircraft carrier in a resource rich region.
I do, but the culprit is the Christian religion, which is what Zionism is. The fact that they recruited Jewish foot soldiers for their crusades doesn’t give the excuse to parrot Protocols of the Elders of Zion characterizations of the Jewish religion devoid of 2,000 years of historical context. It’s also the reason that the American public supports the genocide, because American culture has been dominated by Christian crusaders whose theology is based on genocidal settler colonialism ever since the so-called Pilgrims (who were themselves Zionists) landed in Massachusetts.
To paraphrase @[email protected], a Jew from Lemmygrad, from his PM
There are alternative views on that subject, which make the religious justification shaky, by Jews themselves
Well , according to Torah Ha-Qudesha , {the arrival of Jews onto the promised land} will happen after the Mashiah has arrived and not as the zionists claim it . Because the zionists have already broken the misva and have transgressed other misvas too
According to Rambam (Moshe Ben Maimon) …
there is no obligation on all Jews to go and live in Eretz Yisrael, because if they were to do so it would be violating the Three Oaths (according to our sages ) . The Jewish people may not go up en masse to take over Eretz Yisrael They may not fight with the nations of the world ( the gentiles ) . They may not attempt to force an end to the exile and bring the redemption on their own. (Ketubot 111a .)
They broke it and tarnished it to the ground
Individual Jews may live in Eretz Yisrael, but not as part of any organized effort to control the land.
In other words , we should not … ( and I repeat again ) we should not take the land of others and neither steal from its people .
The Almighty h-shem has already put guardians and custodians to the land and it’s sacred places that are very important and beloved to us observant orthodox and traditional jews , and it’s the Palestinian Arabs , not the zionists .
Not any more than it’s a Christian, Muslim, or secular value, is probably what they mean.
More specifically, that hating the atrocities committed by an ethnostate ≠ hating the dominant ethnicity of that state since that behavior isn’t ethnically intrinsic.
