Couple of months prior, I read an article on Mozilla, where they did a research on automakers and found none comply to good privacy measures. I am planning to buy a used car. I want to know how the data is collected and transmitted.
The car comes with a connected app though I am not planning to use it. It also has apple car play and android auto. Should I use those? The article states some manufacturers even records sexual activities. How are they transmitting these informations? Through connected phones?
My use is fairly basic, I want to use the Bluetooth audio system in the car for listening to music on my phone. I use maps on my phone.
What about car servicing? Can they access stored information?
We need an online guide, based on make and model, on how to disable the transmission of this data.
I would be happy, to make it simpler, to have a set of instructions for how to disable transmission of all data. Basically I just want to know which cable to unplug or cut so the car cannot access the internet
Sometimes its just a fuse…
There’s a few youtube tutorials, but not many. Also, dissableing these will break certain features of your car.
I found a guide for disabling the transmission!
The situation here is rather bleak really.
Generally these cars have their own always on cellular data connection paid by the manufacturer. So they don’t depend on. Your phone for anything.
What they do is record and transmit any sensor data they can. The sexual activity you mentioned, comes from the sensors in the seats that are required to activate seatbelt warnings, or disable the airbags if a child is in the seat. Data from those pressure sensors can be used to determine if there’s a certain kind of rhythmic motion happening in a given seat.
They also collect any and all data they can from devices they connect to. Like phones. So don’t use carplay, or android auto. Don’t use their app. When using Bluetooth audio don’t give permissions to make calls or access contacts.
It should be possible to physically disable the onboard cellular radio. That will prevent any live data tracking. Exactly how depends on the specific car you’re looking at.
I would assume the dealer can access and download the data manually. Use private non-dealer repair shops for any regular maintance or any repairs possible.
So you’re saying if I fuck the same way Fremen walk the desert, they can’t track my car sex…
Precisely
Muad’Dik!
Wormsign!
If you drive a Toyota and the infotainment system has a “DCM” icon in the corner, your driving habits and location are being recorded to their servers.
E: this is happening via their own cellular modem built into the vehicle, with its own separate SIM or eSIM. Getting at the module seems to require access behind the dash, almost purposely making it difficult. Pulling the fuse will kill the front passenger-side speaker, though there are YouTube vids on how to reactivate the speaker while keeping the DCM module dead.
How are they connecting to the server, though the connected phone’s data via Bluetooth, carplay or satellites?
The people saying it uses your phone’s Internet connection are incorrect. The vehicles have built in cellular modems and connect directly. The OEMs negotiate cellular contracts to provide service in their vehicles with ATT, Verizon, etc.
Features like remote locking/unlocking, etc. would not work if it relied on being connected to a phone.
There was a Defcon talk a few years ago (oh god it was 8 years ago) where someone found a way mess with Chryslers because they were all on the Sprint wireless network. Things like lock out the physical controls on the radio then max out the volume, or turn it into a GPS tracker, or disable the brakes! The cars had some service listening on port 6667, there was no way to stop them from accepting malicious connections so Sprint just blocked all traffic on that port on their network at the request of Chrysler. The speaker mentioned they were sorry if you were unable to use IRC any more on Sprint wireless.
DEF CON 23 - Charlie Miller & Chris Valasek - Remote Exploitation of an Unaltered Passenger Vehicle
Most likely a cellular data service. That’s what GM uses for the OnStar stuff.
At least with OnStar you could unplug the antenna to neuter it (No idea if this still works with 2020+MY vehicles).
Esim
Sim card but prolly via your phone if it is connected to the car.
I recently bought a 2021 vehicle that has OnStar. I knew this would be a concern, but luckily there was a guide online to replace the antenna with a dummy antenna that isn’t ever able to connect to the network to send data.
So that might be an option! It’s still collecting but it’s not sending anything back.
I bought a 2024 vehicle with OnStar, I wonder if the process is comparable… Could you share your source please?
I made a step by step guide to disable OnStar on my 2022 Bolt. Easy to do, not permanent, and doesn’t disable the cellphone, Bluetooth, GPS, compass, or hands free microphone.
Why would you host this on imgur?
Here’s the Guide I used! I had to wing a little bit for my vehicle but it was still really easy https://quigs.blog/how-to-disable-onstar-on-the-chevy-bolt-to-protect-your-privacy/
You can do that on a Chevvy bolt? Fantastic
Can’t you just snip the OnStar wires?
Why the dummy antenna?
I think it throws an internal error if you pull the fuse or cut power to it? I’m not entirely sure. I did it so I could disable it and if I needed to re enable it for any reason it would be really easy.
You cannot stop the collection. It ALWAYS collects. It may not transmit, even if connected. For example the black box in many cars is really an assortment of ECUs that contain fine grained historical data. It does eventually roll over and get replaced but the data is there.
For example there are public cases you can find where the police, not even needing a warrant, were allowed to dump this data off of a rental vehicle that a suspect, not convicted just suspected, was thought to have been in. Of course the copaganda story showed that they the used this data which was mostly location by gps and speed by the wheel sensors and gps to get a track of everywhere that vehicle had been in the last 6 months. Every person who rented it and drove it somewhere had their privacy violated. But I guess that’s normal now.
The infotainment systems are the biggest jerks for data storage as they’re just mini generic computers today with lots of storage.
To stop wireless transmission you can remove the sim card from the modem. Many vehicles won’t work or even start if the modem is disconnected (unplugged or unfused). A Nissan for example will drain its 12v battery overnight trying to find the modem if it is unplugged. But if the sim is bad or disabled, it will try and fail to communicate, then retry later which won’t kill the battery.
You lose a lot of convenience and the data is still there. So the answer is basically you can’t drive a new vehicle without it violating your privacy with collection. You can only make the wireless transmission more private or disabled. I suppose you could buy a scanner yourself and before you leave the vehicle, factory wipe all ECUs. But even then you’ll need to enable them for emissions testing and such if that’s in your area.
Drive older cars and learn how to fix them!
I prefer not burning fossil fuels
Older EV?
For example I think the old leafs use the 3G data connection. Now that the 3G system has been retired no more data collecting!!
At least that is what I understand.
Most parts of Europe still have 2G service, so 3G isn’t fully dissapearing for at least the next 20 years there.
USA still has 2G, but 3G is definitely no longer around. Those frequencies have been portioned out for 4G LTE and 5G.
You’re right. I had a quick look on Wikipedia and it seems that 3G is getting shut down sooner due to frequency overlap with newer generations as you’ve said. 2G seems to not have so much overlap so it’s living longer.
I thought "if 2G is still around and is x years old and still isn’t fully disabled, then 3G which is y years old must have at least y-x years left. But alas, I was wrong, and thank you for correcting me.
So walk.
So electric derived from coal is much better?
#1 yes
#2 it can come from other, cleaner sources
Thanks!
What a terrible take.
First off, unironically yes on account of higher efficiency in electric engines over combustion engines.
Second, what grids still run on 100% coal? And why would they keep doing that long-term, given that coal is just shit on its own merits?
Sorry, I am not current. Didn’t know that solar is a lot more efficient and cheap nowadays. https://www.popsci.com/story/environment/cheap-renewable-energy-vs-fossil-fuels/
Where I live in Colorado, the grid is dominantly coal but they are slowly transitioning. Thank you for your insight.
32% coal vs 39% renewables, with natural gas making up the majority of the remainder - https://www.eia.gov/state/?sid=CO#tabs-4
Looks pretty good, but the western slope is seriously lacking the infrastructure so far.
Oh come on don’t be annoying
Oof guys. It was an honest question. Thank you all for the insight.
No, electric derived from solar or wind or hydro is best. The easiest way for homeowners to charge their cars is solar.
That’s dope. I didn’t know that was realistic.
Easy - just keep pouring money into them, always, forever.
Edit: yes yes but this anecdote where an old car you heard about/own works forever for free
Depends on the make and model. Some cars can just keep going with low maintenance, but I do see your point!
Not the exact (and only) solution, but some manufacturers may have a Do Not Sell My Information request form. Subaru has it on their website and I submitted a request for myself. Obviously we won’t know if they actually follow through, but it’s worth a shot. Some people have experimented with going in and actually disabling the antenna that the car uses for telemetry, but that’s at your own risk and likely voiding warranties in the process.
I think using carplay/android auto isn’t as bad since the infotainment system is just projecting your phone’s display, so your phone’s privacy policies apply. Whether you trust those policies is of course up to you. Cars that force their own systems (like GMC I think) are more risky because you are using it directly.
Its better to disconnect the sensors than to trust policy
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My solution is to continue to only own old (mid-2000s or older) cars in perpetuity.
(And also use a bicycle instead for most trips.)
You could get yourself a RF analyzer or an old Hammy (Ham radio enthusiast would likely have something you could borrow)and find out what they are using then that would allow you to figure out your options such as removing the antenna, sim card, or the module in some manner. The problem with removing modules could be they are tied into the cars electronic controller which could cause issues with the car even working.
RF analysis is kinda difficult, you’d need to take the car out into the middle of nowhere and have access to fairly good equipment. A tinySA would maybe work if you’re very patient but data transmissions are generally very bursty so it may be difficult to nail down where it’s coming from in a sane amount of time.
One option would be to try to figure out if there are any FCC filings for your car. All filings will have pictures of whatever module is being used and what antenna systems it uses which may give you a good idea of where it is and what it looks like. There should be an FCC ID mentioned somewhere at the beginning or end of the cars manual. Googling that should bring up some stuff.
Or you could just wrap your car in aluminium foil like a giant burrito
Ah, the tin foil car method
Off topic. I saw a few comments about disabling or removing the modem on the car. How about removing where the telementry code resides in? Is that feasible?
Probably not. You’d have to figure out how to jailbreak your car and figure out how to remove that code. Then a software update could potentially undo it, or you could brick it while trying. A hardware fix on the other hand is often much simpler and is far easier to revert
Ops. Missed important keywords. I mean replacing the hardware which contains telementry code. Like the infotainmemt system, or the ECU, or something else.
P.S. Not too into the car world so please forgive some misunderstandings I might have.
I wonder if what you could do is look into a Stingray device and plonk that in your car to make it to connect to that instead of local cell towers?
https://sls.eff.org/technologies/cell-site-simulators-imsi-catchers
edit: whoa, I just looked at the prices of them. Surely there’s something a clever Trevor could put together here…
edit II: As someone else mentioned, Femtocells.
I’ve always wondered about buying one years ago but they seem like a rarity here these days. Also, manipulating that data / telemetry to show you in Antarctica has got to be on someone’s fun list?
Wouldn’t removing the sim card be easier?
These days they would be using an esim rather than a physical sim.
For my truck, I ended up looking in the owners manual and found a fuse that is for the modem. I removed it and the vehicle functions without issue.
I know it works because when I brought it to the dealership to get serviced they said they couldn’t connect to it via their online service app. They also asked if I had tried to connect to it via the company app on my phone. I just told them I never needed to.
Just to be sure I verified they didn’t reinstall the fuse and they had not.
Don’t buy cars that have this shit.
That’s becoming less feasible with every day that passes.
Yes, with emission standards, old car purchases are not really encouraged here. I am looking for a fairly new used car and these features are already included in most of them.
A 1999 Honda crv can be made to run forever
Until someone blows a stop sign and turns it to scrap. You can only account for so much.
Parts will fast become an issue.
No they won’t. Many many parts are shared with accords, there are so many parts in junkyards it’s insane. The engines are still being made too.
The fuel economy is infinitely worse than a bolt
Buy a used car, or don’t buy a car at all and ride a bike, walk, or use public transit. Might have to move to a place that has busing, subways, bike lanes, etc. but it isn’t impossible.
Depending on what you’re trying to avoid, even 18 year old cars had OnStar gps that could in theory always track you unfortunately
Pretty much any device could also be removed, disabled, or prevented from transmitting/receiving.
This is what I do, but sometimes you have to ride in someone else’s car. Trying to tell them you don’t want to speak because its a god damn surveillance capsule doesn’t go over well
Right, because that’s a viable option. Worked so well for smart TVs too.
Honestly there is more options for smart TV alternatives than cars.
Buy commercial grade TVs or a projector: They don’t have that garbage.
You can also just buy older used cars, which are still perfectly good and do not have invasive surveillance that companies use to profit off of you with no benefit to you.
Number 1) find the fuse that controls the modem and pull it. Without this your car can only report when the service techs hook it up to their diagnostics, and what is reported there versus what reports on the regular from the modem is a huge difference. You lose a lot of convenience this way, but that’s to be expected. CarPlay and auto give you a lot of that convenience back, but now you’re giving a lot of that same data to Apple and Google, even if all you think you’re doing is projecting maps from your phone to your infotainment. Do you trust them? You can use Bluetooth audio in most cars without using CarPlay or auto, that should be safe. Stick to maps on your phone if you don’t want Google or Apple getting your driving data.
One issue with “hacky” methods suggested here I can see is they might disable eCall in the EU. And eCall is actually a safety improvement so for some it might be a very suboptimal compromise. But maybe if enough people show resistance to uncontrolled data collection then some meaningful legislation will be passed.
I think the only good way to go is to break the transmitter inside the car and hope it doesn’t brick it.
You can probably cut a cable going to the transmitter than break the transmitter itself. Low voltage cables can be reconnected trivially.
Maybe but my guess is a lot of that stuff is Integrated onto a single board.
Yea that’s the best way.
This is what you are looking for: https://youtu.be/pA0zYTmi5ck
I’m looking for an article or non-video documentation
