Ya, I’d been looking for a decent alternative forever. Tried to scratch the itch there but man it was bad. Just infested with neonazi pedos to the nth degree.
Not a claim, an hypotesis.
Could also be wrongful intervention from Reddit interests. Could be both and some more.
“Gotta love” the scientific method !
~I really hope world can stay alive, they are in danger of completely undoing all of the work lemmy has done to get users. if they take world offline, that will create FUD that proves no point and gets people off lemmy saying “wow, I have nothing to show for my time, im going back to a stable site, maybe Reddit is the only safe place for content.”~
At the time I made my first comment in here, there was no word from any admin, so, I had that (hypothesis //hunch //educated_guess) whatever you may call it. And then I wrote : “time will tell”. Well, I had the confirmation I needed for that L.W.Admin.
Finally, if you need some more information, you may search it by yourself - - I have nothing more to say.
thats not communism, thats red painted bullshit. please DO ~defederate from whatever the hell that is.~ remove trolls using false flags.
my idiot self's old comment
within these people are a sort of poison, one that entrenches them in their symbols and attack others with pride, like an idiot. the (alt? and regular?) right uses these losers and their corrupted ideas and flag clutching as ammunition (for example, against Trans folk).
Edit: I was using a hammer when i nedded a scalpel. Generally dont like my rant written in anger. To be clear, Waving a communist or trans flag and then being a narcisist in public. It is either a false flag or an idiot. Result is a useful addition to a news media’s hyperreality.
Edit: i am REALLY unhappy with this comment, i fail by leaving whats implied unsaid. A natural observer given a big name like CNN saying things is always at risk of treeting the whole movement like a tom and jarry cartoon. Antifa usually gets a bad reputation, is it warrented? I dont know because the news is designed to let you make short and usually wrong assumptions. One commenter was right, you fight the news by looking out the window and seeing the negbors arent loonitics and in fact rather lovely.
Edit: i am still REALLY unhappy with this comment, also spelling
I cant really speak on these issues as I need guidance more than answers. I have been told to not worry about the propaganda machine (my old and current psychological trap) and to rather be free of it and to free others by showing them a better place. I was merely dragging people into the machine I sought to destroy. for this I am sorry.
the (alt? and regular?) right uses these losers and their corrupted ideas and flag clutching as ammunition (for example, against Trans folk).
The local org that helps connect trans people with resources like housing and medical care is mostly made up of and run by ML’s. The idea that fascists would be kinder to trans people if ML’s stopped existing is ahistorical nonsense.
The good old: “Actually people supporting trans are doing the right a service!”
Pity that hexbear is a bastion of trans posters, which means you are effectively saying: “Trans people are (used by) right wing people as ammunition!” which is right, but right wingers do weaponize everything. There is no way to behave nice enough to complacence them.
I have yet to find a post in your profile in which you do write public support for our trans comrades 🏳️⚧️. I doubt you will, but even if you do it it will remain performative unless you repeat it online, amplify trans voices and start to support your LGBTQ community in your meat space. However since you have no positive comment in the last month it is clear that you are objectively not supporting trans rights, since your only mention is how a group you disagree with - which itself does support trans rights - is hurting trans folk. to the audience Raise your hands if that does sound transphobe to you.
The X are poison is a very common fascist talking point that is actually a verbatim quote of not only that, but Nazi propaganda.
Man hexbear is such a shit show. When chapotraphouse was a sub I was on there near 24/7 for like 2 years, and it was the best online experience I’ve ever had. Then they migrated over to hexbear and it’s like only the worst, most self righteous people from the community moved over. I’m literally the most left person I personally know by a wide margin, and I got called a reactionary and told to kill myself and then a mod agreed with them and banned me for a week over a blatantly pro trans comment that apparently wasn’t pro trans in the right way. Like it literally said “trans people should be able to do whatever the fuck they want with their body, I don’t care, it doesn’t effect me” and like 5 people were like “you ‘don’t care’ about trans people? Do the world a favor and fucking kill yourself, you’re literally butchering trans comrades with your comment”
I’m literally the most left person I personally know by a wide margin
So you don’t count people you know online, you also don’t go to organizing union meetings, are not part of collectives and not part of a real left party (thus are likely an individualist, moralist, idealist liberal who will often - since there is little self critique and reflection - for example having thought how you could integrate parts of being anti racist in your life within a group). Of course you might be called a reactionary in some cases. Feel free to link to them, post those opinions in the un-safe space we got here as quote and people can do reflect on that. Taking your quote (which likely ignores context to present yourself in a better light) I have to say that:
trans people should be able to do whatever the fuck they want" (good) "***********************” (bad)
Yeah that is reactionary. You were rightfully banned as you broke server rules. There were enough campaigns i.e. “Read Trans Liberation!” for you to educate yourself. You didn’t. You are not the victim here.
To break it down: You went into a space of solidarity and then climbed on a chair and yelled “I don’t care about [group you are supposed to be having a minimum degree of solidarity with]”. Everyone is able to understand that this is even if it is your uncle’s birth date and you would yell that you don’t care about your uncle it is a social faux pas. However what you did is much worse.
The website’s slogan at that point even was “We love our trans comrades!”
Besides:
and told to k**l m***lf and then a mod agreed with them
X: [Doubt]
You already showed yourself to be an unreliable narrator, no reason to believe such an extraordinary claim.
Edit Wonder who downvotes this post
Edit2:
CW in effect transphobia commited in a save space, with multiple repeating posts and comments and an unwillingness to see the perspectives of others, this is the context of what OP did post:
spoiler
Is the constantly talking about being trans in leftist spaces not also fueling the over focus on trans people? removed by mod posted by fawx [he/him] to askchapo •
So no one thinks I’m a troll, I completely support trans people doing whatever the fuck they want with their bodies. And I don’t mind seeing trans stuff. But with that said, I feel like the hundreds and hundreds of posts I see about trans people is not helping. Going off like this site and a few others I browse you’d think trans people are like 40% of people instead of more like 2%.
I feel like constantly putting them in the spotlight, even to say you support them is just contributing to this “trans awareness burnout” I hear about in a lot of my non-leftist conversations.
I heard things similar to that within the spoiler during the 80s when I did attend gay meetups, protests and LGBTQ* representation in media became slightly more common (while what we did was still criminal in many places). Turns out I wasn’t gay btw. I was bi (and that includes trans people as bi is defined as having attraction to more than one owns gender) and still am, but was, too. However the gay spaces were the spaces which enabled me to be myself and not the eternal cycle of “this is too much progress for the [women/black people/jews/italians/gays/insert minority/marginalized group of your choice]! they would progress more if they would be silent and try to pass as cis white evangelical hetero who eat meat and drink beer in unhappy marriages!”
fawx has the capacity to change and act different, as well as to not slander thousands of users with re-tellings of stuff that didn’t happen like that and which minimizes their actions (which is understandable human, but it remains wrong. I do understand the emotional feeling of giving somebody a wipe as fawx did try to do with depicting hexbear as bad for excluding him for no reason - and the willing audience of people taking that for a fact instead of doing their due dilligence). Still the burden is on fawx to read, speak, listen and not primarily center themselves. If they are actually in the union they have enough ways to grow (attending IWW and other fighting unions organizing meetups and summer schools for example).
I’m literally the union representative for my job, and most of your other assumptions are also wrong. You’re also doing an uncharitable reading of my post. I don’t care about trans people means “I am not bothered by them” like I don’t care whether we have hotdogs or hamburgers.
You’re the kinda person that ruined that instance.
Essentially blaming people expressing support for trans people for the right wing culture war focus on trans people is definitely a bit more than just saying you’re fine with trans people doing what they want. Stop being so dishonest about what people were pissed at you for. You know it wasn’t a “blatantly pro trans comment”
Man, I’m happy I’m not the only one who feels like this. I had such a good time in the chapotraphouse sub and never forgave reddit for banning it. None of the offspring from there could really capture what made this sub special, the hexbear thing certainly can’t.
Like it literally said “trans people should be able to do whatever the fuck they want with their body, I don’t care, it doesn’t effect me” and like 5 people were like “you ‘don’t care’ about trans people?
This is why I keep quiet on issues like that, someone will always say you are wrong for not having their exact opinion and wording. Had a similar thing when I said a 5 year old boy can wear a dress without being a girl, just let them do what they want.
That isn’t literally what the person said, though. The modlog and profile on hexbear does show that they did also argue to post less about trans support, argued for people showing less support and did not accept when other, trans!, people explained their view and why he ought to chill out at least. So there was a repeated violation of server rules in a short span of time (and fawx did leave the server).
The ban in the mod log is also for 1 day, not eternal (all of us are human and sometimes we are on rolls we wouldn’t continue after a good round of sleep). Don’t trust random people when it aligns with your bias.
@[email protected] did give already a critique on your comment in content.
Sometimes, it’s based on larger patterns of subtle behaviors that wouldn’t be indicative of a problem on their own.
Sometimes, people are doing harmful things by accident because they grew up in a culture where those shitty things are normalized.
Sometimes, people are doing things which would not be harmful on their own, but are associated with negative experiences that are only common for the minority group.
Sometimes, people who have a long history of being timid have gotten fed up with putting themselves down for others’ comfort, so their pendulum swings the other way and we only see the tail end of that.
And yeah, sometimes it’s someone who’s immature or aggressive for unrelated reasons and isn’t thinking super hard about what they’re doing beyond finding a weakness and attacking it. Social media design makes this worse. I think situations where that’s all it is are less common than we think, though.
There’s also often ingroup/outgroup dynamics at play. And what makes it worse is that people who exist outside of the grey area of acceptable behavior, people who are just genuinely cruel, will do something cruel and then retreat and act like they belong in the grey area. They learn the ways that they act when people are genuinely uninformed or confused or curious and they copy them, all the while refusing to back down from the shitty thing they did. It’s kind of a charade put on for onlookers to make the victim look like the aggressor.
For the specific issue you mentioned, the good faith interpretation is that, yes, boys can wear dresses. If that’s the end of it, that’s fine. But “wearing a dress doesn’t make you a girl” is also a common phrase used both by malicious transphobes and by misguided loved ones trying to talk their kids out of being trans. There are many reasons that discussions like these are so hard to get the phrasing’s right on is that we don’t have established social norms to make them easy. The established social norms, in fact, make them actively more difficult. And people are doing gender exploration in a matter of months that would have been spread out over years of their childhood if they’d been allowed to do so. It’s just a lot.
I genuinely hear your frustration. I hope you hear mine. Learning all of this has been a painful process and I hope we can see it get easier in the near future.
Understandable since one is a government funded :fedbposting: psyop running on servers in the basement of the FBI building. The other is Reddit.
Ayyyyyyy.
Was the joke. If you take that as proof that that user and hexbear as aggregate are responsible you might need to breath a bit and do learn to be more critical of media. People making jokes about you(r misfortune) aren’t always out to get you.
dot world having a harder time with de federating Fascist propaganda (exploding heads and alike, while keeping their users) than with pre emptively doing a US centric Red scare and McCarthyism is quite funny and something the intelligence agencies of the US had in their hand books for over half a century. It is also often the action of liberals who think civility is more important that positive justice.
However lets say a piece or two about @[email protected], they are close to conspiracy thought sometimes.
Join “Lemmy.world” ; here you can create your own communities 🙂
Respect and thanks to the creators of lemmy-software, pretty sure they have friends (states) with big pockets 😆 !
Yeah, cause FOSS means evil communist governments secretly funding open source software.
They also regularly lie and misconstrue what people say.
All in all the user is a good example how liberal moderation policy (or the lack of them) leads to gray and black propaganda and spheres that are not emancipatory.
This is for fun you should know.
“friend state” hypotesis is a bit farfetch but :
if it was false we wouldn’t know either.
if it was true (maybe) it would be a global positive contribution from (Russia? China?).
Also please notice the comment_link you provided (to one of my comments?) does not work at the moment because of a problem with lemmy.world servers.
I saw a comment that mentioned there was a user that was creating tons of communities and squatting on them. That user was called out and banned and they might be behind it. But its all rumours. Does anyone have more details on this rumour?
Those guys can’t catch a break. By whom or why are they getting attacked anyway?
deleted by creator
You sure that’s not because it first gained popularity after Reddit banned the jailbait sub?
VOAT had a reputation of being for the reddit rejected users. The worst of the worst of #conservative.
It was not a pleasant place to lurk.
Ya, I’d been looking for a decent alternative forever. Tried to scratch the itch there but man it was bad. Just infested with neonazi pedos to the nth degree.
deleted by creator
Probably by some ground against the Fediverse or lemmy specifically.
This single post :
https://lemmy.world/post/2874044
https://lemmy.ca/post/2904207
…has a comment from an hexbear user who thinks this is very funny. (hidden from here because we defederated them)
You’re saying hexbear users are responsible?
We sustained an attack right after their defederation, I have no proof now, maybe time will tell.
Gotta love a good baseless claim.
Not a claim, an hypotesis.
Could also be wrongful intervention from Reddit interests. Could be both and some more.
“Gotta love” the scientific method !
First we had redditors calling Lemmy a communist plot. Now we have the biggest instance run by paranoids seeing commie plots everywhere.
My suggestion: stop using lemmydotworld, spread the load, stop being a clown.
That is now how any of that works.
You can be wrong, it doesn’t destroy your self. You don’t have to fear it.
You mean to say :
That is not how any of that works.
Edit : Ridiculous down voting scheme if I ever saw one 🤣.
Hexbear was also experiencing traffic which would fit DDoS, do you suggest that dot world did DDoS Hexbear, too?
Who poisoned the well? Its the witches fault!
lol !
~I really hope world can stay alive, they are in danger of completely undoing all of the work lemmy has done to get users. if they take world offline, that will create FUD that proves no point and gets people off lemmy saying “wow, I have nothing to show for my time, im going back to a stable site, maybe Reddit is the only safe place for content.”~
It could have been beehaw? I mean, I have exactly the same amount of proofthat you have.
This is a quote from L.W.AdmiS’ post :
Lemmy World outages
At the time I made my first comment in here, there was no word from any admin, so, I had that (hypothesis //hunch //educated_guess) whatever you may call it. And then I wrote : “time will tell”. Well, I had the confirmation I needed for that L.W.Admin.
Finally, if you need some more information, you may search it by yourself - - I have nothing more to say.
Where does he say it was hexbear?
thats not communism, thats red painted bullshit. please DO ~defederate from whatever the hell that is.~ remove trolls using false flags.
my idiot self's old comment
within these people are a sort of poison, one that entrenches them in their symbols and attack others with pride, like an idiot. the (alt? and regular?) right uses these losers and their corrupted ideas and flag clutching as ammunition (for example, against Trans folk).Edit: I was using a hammer when i nedded a scalpel. Generally dont like my rant written in anger. To be clear, Waving a communist or trans flag and then being a narcisist in public. It is either a false flag or an idiot. Result is a useful addition to a news media’s hyperreality.Edit: i am REALLY unhappy with this comment, i fail by leaving whats implied unsaid. A natural observer given a big name like CNN saying things is always at risk of treeting the whole movement like a tom and jarry cartoon. Antifa usually gets a bad reputation, is it warrented? I dont know because the news is designed to let you make short and usually wrong assumptions. One commenter was right, you fight the news by looking out the window and seeing the negbors arent loonitics and in fact rather lovely.Edit: i am still REALLY unhappy with this comment, also spelling I cant really speak on these issues as I need guidance more than answers. I have been told to not worry about the propaganda machine (my old and current psychological trap) and to rather be free of it and to free others by showing them a better place. I was merely dragging people into the machine I sought to destroy. for this I am sorry.
The local org that helps connect trans people with resources like housing and medical care is mostly made up of and run by ML’s. The idea that fascists would be kinder to trans people if ML’s stopped existing is ahistorical nonsense.
I retract my old comment and want to fix it, im unhappy with it
The good old: “Actually people supporting trans are doing the right a service!”
Pity that hexbear is a bastion of trans posters, which means you are effectively saying: “Trans people are (used by) right wing people as ammunition!” which is right, but right wingers do weaponize everything. There is no way to behave nice enough to complacence them.
I have yet to find a post in your profile in which you do write public support for our trans comrades 🏳️⚧️. I doubt you will, but even if you do it it will remain performative unless you repeat it online, amplify trans voices and start to support your LGBTQ community in your meat space. However since you have no positive comment in the last month it is clear that you are objectively not supporting trans rights, since your only mention is how a group you disagree with - which itself does support trans rights - is hurting trans folk. to the audience Raise your hands if that does sound transphobe to you.
The X are poison is a very common fascist talking point that is actually a verbatim quote of not only that, but Nazi propaganda.
I retract my old comment and want to fix it, im unhappy with it. I am sorry
Man hexbear is such a shit show. When chapotraphouse was a sub I was on there near 24/7 for like 2 years, and it was the best online experience I’ve ever had. Then they migrated over to hexbear and it’s like only the worst, most self righteous people from the community moved over. I’m literally the most left person I personally know by a wide margin, and I got called a reactionary and told to kill myself and then a mod agreed with them and banned me for a week over a blatantly pro trans comment that apparently wasn’t pro trans in the right way. Like it literally said “trans people should be able to do whatever the fuck they want with their body, I don’t care, it doesn’t effect me” and like 5 people were like “you ‘don’t care’ about trans people? Do the world a favor and fucking kill yourself, you’re literally butchering trans comrades with your comment”
It literally kills me when people say literally when they mean figuratively.
Multiple dictionaries define literally as figuratively, language changes
So you don’t count people you know online, you also don’t go to organizing union meetings, are not part of collectives and not part of a real left party (thus are likely an individualist, moralist, idealist liberal who will often - since there is little self critique and reflection - for example having thought how you could integrate parts of being anti racist in your life within a group). Of course you might be called a reactionary in some cases. Feel free to link to them, post those opinions in the un-safe space we got here as quote and people can do reflect on that. Taking your quote (which likely ignores context to present yourself in a better light) I have to say that:
Yeah that is reactionary. You were rightfully banned as you broke server rules. There were enough campaigns i.e. “Read Trans Liberation!” for you to educate yourself. You didn’t. You are not the victim here.
To break it down: You went into a space of solidarity and then climbed on a chair and yelled “I don’t care about [group you are supposed to be having a minimum degree of solidarity with]”. Everyone is able to understand that this is even if it is your uncle’s birth date and you would yell that you don’t care about your uncle it is a social faux pas. However what you did is much worse.
Besides:
X: [Doubt]
You already showed yourself to be an unreliable narrator, no reason to believe such an extraordinary claim.
Edit Wonder who downvotes this post
Edit2:
CW in effect transphobia commited in a save space, with multiple repeating posts and comments and an unwillingness to see the perspectives of others, this is the context of what OP did post:
spoiler
I heard things similar to that within the spoiler during the 80s when I did attend gay meetups, protests and LGBTQ* representation in media became slightly more common (while what we did was still criminal in many places). Turns out I wasn’t gay btw. I was bi (and that includes trans people as bi is defined as having attraction to more than one owns gender) and still am, but was, too. However the gay spaces were the spaces which enabled me to be myself and not the eternal cycle of “this is too much progress for the [women/black people/jews/italians/gays/insert minority/marginalized group of your choice]! they would progress more if they would be silent and try to pass as cis white evangelical hetero who eat meat and drink beer in unhappy marriages!”
fawx has the capacity to change and act different, as well as to not slander thousands of users with re-tellings of stuff that didn’t happen like that and which minimizes their actions (which is understandable human, but it remains wrong. I do understand the emotional feeling of giving somebody a wipe as fawx did try to do with depicting hexbear as bad for excluding him for no reason - and the willing audience of people taking that for a fact instead of doing their due dilligence). Still the burden is on fawx to read, speak, listen and not primarily center themselves. If they are actually in the union they have enough ways to grow (attending IWW and other fighting unions organizing meetups and summer schools for example).
This is the post that he got banned for. He basically barged into the space asking to tone it down with the trans support.
Just to add to the context, here are some of the now removed comments from the log
I’m literally the union representative for my job, and most of your other assumptions are also wrong. You’re also doing an uncharitable reading of my post. I don’t care about trans people means “I am not bothered by them” like I don’t care whether we have hotdogs or hamburgers.
You’re the kinda person that ruined that instance.
Essentially blaming people expressing support for trans people for the right wing culture war focus on trans people is definitely a bit more than just saying you’re fine with trans people doing what they want. Stop being so dishonest about what people were pissed at you for. You know it wasn’t a “blatantly pro trans comment”
Yeah, but it was and you’re wrong.
Would be pretty sick if they effected us. Like a trans person comes around the corner and suddenly fireworks go off and glowsticks get handed out
I’ll be sure to start doing that.
I mean if you’re uu hang aorund at a pride parade these are very really things that might happen.
Man, I’m happy I’m not the only one who feels like this. I had such a good time in the chapotraphouse sub and never forgave reddit for banning it. None of the offspring from there could really capture what made this sub special, the hexbear thing certainly can’t.
This is why I keep quiet on issues like that, someone will always say you are wrong for not having their exact opinion and wording. Had a similar thing when I said a 5 year old boy can wear a dress without being a girl, just let them do what they want.
That isn’t literally what the person said, though. The modlog and profile on hexbear does show that they did also argue to post less about trans support, argued for people showing less support and did not accept when other, trans!, people explained their view and why he ought to chill out at least. So there was a repeated violation of server rules in a short span of time (and fawx did leave the server).
The ban in the mod log is also for 1 day, not eternal (all of us are human and sometimes we are on rolls we wouldn’t continue after a good round of sleep). Don’t trust random people when it aligns with your bias.
@[email protected] did give already a critique on your comment in content.
A lot of it is contextual.
Sometimes, it’s based on larger patterns of subtle behaviors that wouldn’t be indicative of a problem on their own.
Sometimes, people are doing harmful things by accident because they grew up in a culture where those shitty things are normalized.
Sometimes, people are doing things which would not be harmful on their own, but are associated with negative experiences that are only common for the minority group.
Sometimes, people who have a long history of being timid have gotten fed up with putting themselves down for others’ comfort, so their pendulum swings the other way and we only see the tail end of that.
And yeah, sometimes it’s someone who’s immature or aggressive for unrelated reasons and isn’t thinking super hard about what they’re doing beyond finding a weakness and attacking it. Social media design makes this worse. I think situations where that’s all it is are less common than we think, though.
There’s also often ingroup/outgroup dynamics at play. And what makes it worse is that people who exist outside of the grey area of acceptable behavior, people who are just genuinely cruel, will do something cruel and then retreat and act like they belong in the grey area. They learn the ways that they act when people are genuinely uninformed or confused or curious and they copy them, all the while refusing to back down from the shitty thing they did. It’s kind of a charade put on for onlookers to make the victim look like the aggressor.
For the specific issue you mentioned, the good faith interpretation is that, yes, boys can wear dresses. If that’s the end of it, that’s fine. But “wearing a dress doesn’t make you a girl” is also a common phrase used both by malicious transphobes and by misguided loved ones trying to talk their kids out of being trans. There are many reasons that discussions like these are so hard to get the phrasing’s right on is that we don’t have established social norms to make them easy. The established social norms, in fact, make them actively more difficult. And people are doing gender exploration in a matter of months that would have been spread out over years of their childhood if they’d been allowed to do so. It’s just a lot.
I genuinely hear your frustration. I hope you hear mine. Learning all of this has been a painful process and I hope we can see it get easier in the near future.
Was the joke. If you take that as proof that that user and hexbear as aggregate are responsible you might need to breath a bit and do learn to be more critical of media. People making jokes about you(r misfortune) aren’t always out to get you.
To explain the joke:
dot world having a harder time with de federating Fascist propaganda (exploding heads and alike, while keeping their users) than with pre emptively doing a US centric Red scare and McCarthyism is quite funny and something the intelligence agencies of the US had in their hand books for over half a century. It is also often the action of liberals who think civility is more important that positive justice.
However lets say a piece or two about @[email protected], they are close to conspiracy thought sometimes.
Yeah, cause FOSS means evil communist governments secretly funding open source software.
They also regularly lie and misconstrue what people say.
All in all the user is a good example how liberal moderation policy (or the lack of them) leads to gray and black propaganda and spheres that are not emancipatory.
This is for fun you should know. “friend state” hypotesis is a bit farfetch but :
if it was false we wouldn’t know either.
if it was true (maybe) it would be a global positive contribution from (Russia? China?). Also please notice the comment_link you provided (to one of my comments?) does not work at the moment because of a problem with lemmy.world servers.
I don’t talk with unfunny liars.
I’m very happy so. Feel free to never comment again about what I say.
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deleted by creator
this whole chain of comments makes no sense!
deleted by creator
I understood your comment, its the other ones…
deleted by creator
Now if there was only more content and communities, it would be like Reddit again
https://lemm.ee/comment/2015361
deleted by creator
I saw a comment that mentioned there was a user that was creating tons of communities and squatting on them. That user was called out and banned and they might be behind it. But its all rumours. Does anyone have more details on this rumour?
Probably by some group against the Fediverse or lemmy specifically.