Disclaimer
Not trying to blame anyone here. I‘m just taking an idea I‘ve read and spinning it further:
Intro
A lot of people use free open source software (foss), Linux being one of them. But a lot less actually help make this software. If I ask them why, they always say „I don’t have the coding skills!“.
Maybe its worth pointing out that you don‘t need them. In a lot of cases it’s better to not have any so you can see stuff with a „consumer view“.
In that situation you can file issues on github and similar places. You can write descriptions that non technical people can understand. You can help translate and so on, all depending on your skills.
Other reasons?
I‘d really like to know so the foss community can talk about making it worthwile for non coders to participate.
Using GitHub is a skill of it’s own, and requires knowledge of coding practices. It’s hugely confronting to someone without coding experience
I code but I found it to have quite a learning curve.
Maybe the first step is to develop a “how to use git for improving documentation on a FOSS project” lol
Yes, absolutely but github (which is only an example, mind you) has a lot of consumer friendly accomodations like github gui and cli.
You can edit stuff directly in someone elses repo (or so it seems) in the web browser. I know you have to do a branch and a pull request but thats something that can be worked on.
Thanks for making my point. :)
Woooooooooooosh
Wow. Great addition. Have a nice day.
The “woosh” is because we’re trying to point out that the average person probably doesn’t know how to use git cli and make coding documentation.
I knew that. I‘m saying just because the average person doesnt use it does not mean nobody uses it.
Since you’re trying to build bridges with this post, I just want you to know that everything you mentioned in this comment is far beyond a non-programmer and sounds totally incomprehensible. It’s jargon soup. I don’t say this to dunk on you or anything, I just wanted to let you know how high your own skill level is, because it can be easy to forget sometimes. People without those skills won’t be able to follow this kind of explanation.
I’m interested in where the limits to expectations lie here. I’m not trying to be a jerk when I say this next part but I do worry I may come off that way but I’m trying to figure out the boundaries of what a “reasonable” expectation is so I can make tasks like this easier for my own team (completely unrelated to this project but it’s essentially the same problem).
Is it not reasonable to expect people to type into a search engine something like “GitHub help” and then poke around in the links that come up?
… Well I’ll be damned, I tried my own method before commenting, and the first link that comes up is a red herring, how obnoxious. I was hoping it’d be a link to the docs, not GitHub support. I guess I just answered my own question: no that is not reasonable.
As a technical user, I am still at a loss for how to help a non-technical user in an algorithmic way that will work for most non-technical users x.x guess I’ll be thinking about this problem some more lol
(I guess I’m rambling but I’m gonna post this anyways in case anyone wants to chatter about it with me)
It’s super hard to know this and there won’t be a consistent answer because everyone is different. You have to meet people where they are.
I think you did answer your own question on this one. I’ll also say that as a somewhat technical user but still not a heavily technical user like some people here, GitHub is a really baffling website. It’s hard to even figure out how to download something from it. I would strongly encourage anyone who wants to reach non-technical users to avoid GitHub. It’s made for programmers and it doesn’t make sense to anyone else without training.
That’s fair. Part of my job is converting non-technical users into technical users by teaching them things like problem solving approaches that are supposed to help them teach themselves how to learn whatever they need to actually do their job. I don’t teach them what to do, I teach them how to learn what to do.
I agree that you gotta meet people where they’re at, but I try to teach them how to poke around any code repo site, like GitHub or gitlab, so they can use it. Usually I point them to the docs and start by pointing out my favorite parts so that they have somewhere to kind of start by themselves, but it is a skill set that can be practice, or at least I am convinced it is.
I’m not very good at this part of my job, but also, no one is, so it’s not a bad thing, I just want to do better. I guess I never thought of it from a truly non-technical and not wanting to be technical perspective before. This could be solved by a secondary interface designed specifically for this kind of user. It would not allow code download or interaction, but it would allow for issue logging. I might put this idea in my ever growing project list because it sounds like it would be a useful product…
Thanks for the heads up. Yes, I‘m indeed trying to help and apparently some people really want me to stop but I wont. I‘m happy a few actually appreciate it.
The jargon soup is not intentional, I was trying to head off a couple smartypants that will tell me that editing a repository in the browser actually just makes a branch.
You can’t do it right anyway. If you facilitate change, people will crucify you. So I just take hate and dont care at all.
That was exactly my point with the linked xkcd too. Not sure how they interpreted that as being in support of their post.
I’m a programmer and I find dealing with other programmers frustrating and pointless if you discuss anything that’s not programming related.
They’ll happily discuss algorithms or language paradigms for hours but if you mention design, UI/X, marketing, etc they shut you down claiming some greater-technical reason for the feature.
Lemmy is a good, recent example. As part of being a web dev I’ve also done a lot of SEM. The devs have a Github issue for making readable URLs. They completely refused to consider it claiming other technical requirements for not allowing it. Any arguments outside the narrow technical reasons are discounted. So what if readable URLs will help people find the site through Google easier (because Google will better index the site). It breaks X feature and we don’t see a need. No discussion and no listening.
If devs don’t see a strict technical need for something they ignore it at best and at worst they insult you for being an idiot.
Hubris and ignorance make it a PITA to deal with them.
Ohhh I know that one! This happened to me a lot already. Some devs are completely socially incompetent although brillant programmers. I mostly call them out on their bs if they start it. Happened a couple times in this comment section alone.
This is why I’m so glad my degree forced us to have UI and UX classes to graduate. I definitely picked up a lot from those that have helped me be a better developer overall
Tried submitting a relatively simple change to the Ansible code base once. Added an option to the telnet module to support different ports. Submitted a pull request. Was told I needed to change and update the documentation. Didn’t know how to do that, and I didn’t get any guidance, so I abandoned the pull request. Kept on using my own hack until someone else added the option.
Make contributing easy, and more people will contribute.
I absolutely agree. This needs to get a lot better. But talking about this will facilitate change. Thanks for taking part.
Pretty much this. I had a similar experience on a different project. If I ever submit a patch again, I’ll make sure to run it by the maintainers before I start coding.
If you can’t code (or have limited coding skill) but know the system well, one of the best ways to contribute is by writing end-user focused documentation. Write about things that confused you. Improve the “getting started” guide. Add more articles to the docs. Create video tutorials. Things like that.
Exactly. Thanks for mentioning it. :)
I think a major deterrent from contributing things that aren’t code is that whoever is implementing it might think their design is better just because it’s theirs.
Try talking to the GNOME team, for example. You will never be able to get a suggestion past them because they’re always right and you’re always wrong.
Even when you prove them wrong and they backpedal, they are still correct and you are still wrong.
I ran into basically this with home assistant. Commented on an issue about an integration to point out that it didn’t work at all, and to support another user that had rewritten it in a way that fixed it. The approval dev jumped in to say that they only permit single changes to be approved. That’s fine, I guess, but to fix the issue multiple changes were necessary. The user that had rewritten it then tried to limit the change to a single fix, but because that didn’t resolve the issue they blocked the change. The integration still doesn’t work and the user stopped trying to fix it.
I totally believe you.
That kind of rigidity in software design leads me to believe more people need to read The Pragmatic Programmer.
I, of course, do not; because I am already a pragmatic programmer.
Gee if someone wants to fix an issue they can be my guest, that way I don’t have to deal with it. It’s not that people aren’t pragmatic it’s that they are little generals of their own world and they don’t want to give that up even if it would make the world better.
I’ve met some absolute Napoleon’s in my time programming. I don’t know what it is that attracts them, perhaps it’s that programmers historically tend not to have very good social skills in general? I don’t know, but it’s weird. You’d think they’d all be total nerds and be somewhat deferent, but nope.
I mean, you‘re not wrong. But I think you’r example applies to far more than you think.
I think the reason we are in a dystopian hellscape is because people need to be always right and never say sorry. That is why the master manipulators are running our countries and economies. Because then you can be always right, poor and exploited but always right.
The movie idiocracy is a perfect depiction of our current world.
But I think we can make it happen nevertheless. We need to tackle points like yours and take them serious. This would be excellent in a code of conduct for the foss community to take on.
You will never be able to get a suggestion past them because they’re always right and you’re always wrong.
I said similar in another comment. The Lemmy devs are the same.
Lemmy only exists because Reddit kicked some fascists off the side a couple of years ago and they didn’t like that. So, yeah, they’re not stable.
As someone who knows how to code and wants to contribute to FOSS, there is very little guidance in doing so even if I half-know what I’m doing.
I agree. I‘m also often confused. I‘m not adept at coding but a lot of low level programming, scripting, config files and so on I can do.
We need a more streamlined process and a behavioral code how to treat contributors. Something like the fedi instances that have decided to band together against bigotry and such.
OP, your post has inspired me! I’m going to write a small python program that works as a multiple choice questionnaire that spits out a comprehensive ‘contributing.MD’ at the end of it.
When I’m done, will you test it for me and give some feedback?
Abso-f*cking-lutely! Thank you for the feedback! :)
An organised, easy way to do this would be great. Kind of like a test audience for FOSS.
Right now, people basically have to appoint and organise themselves as reviewer, which is a big ask.
Yes indeed! Feel free to dm me if you‘re interested in helping with this. I feel like now that so many people responded positively, we could discuss where to go from here.
Good luck! Organising is hard work.
I can code or do errands, and am willing to help out a bit. I’m not sure how much time exactly I can devote to this, but if you’re stuck on something and can’t find anyone else to do it, I’m a good call. I might switch back to lemmy.sdf.org depending on how broken it stays, same username though.
Sounds great. I‘ll let you know if I come up with something.
Making it easier to contribute is the main thing. I don’t use git or discord, so I usually try to find an email address, if none is available I move on.
Sounds very reasonable. Git still needs improvement imo. It’s tough to use even for experienced people. Works good though.
Most fun i had was writing translations in weblate recently. Another way of contributing that works well.
I think the biggest issue with this would be that it would require non-technical people to use ticketing systems (have you ever worked in admin IT?).
They tend to put things like, button broken, or will not load, which are not necessarily helpful tickets.
I have worked in IT on and off for 20 yrs so I‘m quite familiar with tickets. The problem is mostly the organization. If you have a hybrid like me who has seen many jobs, you have no problems with tickets. The issue is reducing the headcount to the most skeleton crew as possible and then letting high profile coders take tickets from IT noobs. Thats a bomb just waiting to explode.
I wish I or someone else who understands CAD modeling could help make FreeCAD work better. A LOT of the issue is tools that are commonly used are hidden in weird places that make sense only to people who don’t used cad for a living.
You‘re the best person for this job. The issue seems to be that you dont know where to point your feedback? Which is the whole point of this discussion. :) thanks for making your point.
Writing documentation of all kinds seems like it would help a great deal. I would be hesitant to file UX complaints, because those tend to be ignored by programmers who focus their limited available time on fixing defects and shipping features.
Where are all the programmers who enjoy improving UX and enjoy the challenge of changing legacy code? 😉
Fair enough. There seems to be a hole in the plan there. I think most UX programmers are sitting on their 5000$ chairs writing code on their 10k$ mac for their billion $ corporate employer. Kind of joking but I bet its not far from the truth.
Because FOSS devs think the “consumer view” is wrong and the software should correct it, not the other way around.
I can see where you‘re coming from. That definitely needs to change.
Considering how often feedback is met with “where’s the PR”… that’s why.
So you‘re saying they’re unfriendly/impatient with non experts? That is a real problem imo and needs to be addressed. Thanks for the feedback.
I’m a coder myself, but… yeah, it’s a definite problem. Of course the feedback can sometimes have its own issues.
Absolutely. I have made mistakes myself and I know its hard to understand that others think differently than oneself.
Because my skills when it comes to coding (absolutely none), is using the program until it breaks and telling someone what happened from an uneducated stand point.
If you are going to make things for “idiots” you need to hand it to “idiots” for testing.
